Pagan-Friendly Worship

Now, I really must go!

 

I was called into work. It seems we're having a persistent problem with one of the cryo pumps. While waiting on the system to base out and the heaters to settle, I thought I'd see if Scott had a moment to reply.

Scott, you can think what you want about my neglect of your more inconsequential arguments. If you want to think that you have me in the crushing grip of reason what can I do about that? You are way off topic, but I'll be willing to discuss some of it privately with you if you wish. I'm determined to keep my replies as close to the topic as possible.

Here I will answer one of your direct questions and teach you how the NT gift of prophecy is manifested.

In response to this friendly advice to you, "Next time you want to make a personal jab, don't use one that will poke just about everyone on your side, too, including yourself," you asked, "Such as..."

Don't think that I am going to suggest some personal jabs for you to use against me. To do that I would have to be dumber than you look . Think up your own.

Secondly, the NT prophet is not characterized primarily by foretelling the future, though there was a little of that when the church was just born. The NT prophet is one who is characterized by a seemingly natural (it is a spiritual) ability to open up and explain the Word of God to someone else. And to this characteristic Paul bears witness when he said, and though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge. "All" mysteries and "all" knowledge is a form of hyperbole, of course. But so is, "the tongues of men and angels," and "all faith so that I could remove mountains." The point is that Paul magnified the characteristic manifestation of those gifts when he used them in contrast to the exercise of charity.

So, you see that again, my view is the one that is based on the examples provided in the Scriptures.

 

I will repeat what I said about prophecy, and then quote Thayer's, as Scott is especially enamoured with that particular Lexicon, and then provide the denotative meaning of the Greek itself.

We will also look at the NT descriptions and examples of the exercises of that gift that are NOT future-telling.

From this you will be able to see that I was right (again), for this is not the first time I've ever looked into the gift having come out of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement some 15 years ago.

You will also see that Scott is not a skilled interpreter nor expositor, and, worse, not wholly forthcoming.

First, what I said:

Now Thayer's:

And the first thing that comes to view is that Thayer lists exercises other than future-telling. So far Thayer agrees with me.

Scott, on the other hand said, "The minute you can foretell future events (see the Greek word for prophesy here - propheteia) without error..." The subtext here is clear. Prophecy equals prediction, and nothing more.

He further aggravates his crime by mis-representing Thayer's definition, "Thayer's shows quite easily that the word propheteuo has a definite connotation of telling the future." Yes, that and other "connotations" as well. But again, the intent is clear. His purpose is to say that Thayer excludes the other operations of the gift. The reader can easily see that the truth is other than what Scott was willing to put before our eyes.

Thayer provides for us the denotative meaning at the head of his exposition. And you will see that he further agrees with what I said which was that the word 'prophecy' "The word means simply to speak forth..."

Now the NT equivalences of prophecy to preaching:

1. Paul said that one who prophesies "...speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." 1 Cor. 14:3 (Where is prediciton mentioned in this account?) Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," Luke 4:18.

2. Paul also said that Moses preached the Gospel. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Hebrews 4:2.

3. And Peter's instructions to the preachers and teachers in the church, "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God," 1 Peter 4:11. In other words all speaking and teaching in the church is "prophecy." And this is not stretch. It is exactly what it means to prophesy, to speak forth the mind and will of God.

NT examples of prophecy where prediction is not evident.

1. Jesus with the woman at the well, "Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly." Her response, "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet."

2. Peter with Simon the Sorcerer, "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." Acts 8:20-23.

3. "But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth." 1 Cor. 14:24-25. This is not the predictive kind of prophecy as evident in verse 3 quoted above. It is also contrasted to a supernatural revelation in verse 6.

4. And of course 1 Corinthinans 13, which you so glibly dismissed, because it so painfully corrects your pixilated whims about the exercise of the gift. As you can see, this verse does not stand alone, but it would not be any less true if it did. "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge..."

And what more shall I say? You're wrong again. Doesn't that get a little tiresome?

 

It sure is a good thing Aaron lets you know that he is spiritually and intellectually superior than you with every single post, otherwise I just wouldn't be able to tell who's winning this debate.

you try to tell her what to do
and all she does is stare at you
her stare is louder than your voice
because truth doesn't make a noise

 

Well, Scott, the page you link us to doesn't load, but I can show you where Thayer says exactly what I said he said.

HERE

and

HERE

Now the reader can see with just a cursory glance that in both definitions (expositions, really) Thayer does not even come close to limiting the operation of prophecy to prediction.

The truth being established with this regard, let's move on.

I've had years of Greek training at Samford University, so I would say that I am decently skilled in the area.

Was it Samford that taught you a word study could be done without looking up more than one form of the word? Why do those who write lexicons for us continually refer us to roots and synonyms? You look up one definition, don't even try to look at the passages where they're used, and you call that skill?

That's not what I'd call it.

Those who are able to predict the future because of a gift from God to edify, echort, and comfort. The prediction is mentioned in the context. Had Paul meant something else, surely he would have used a different word...

Again, your limitation of the meaning here is not founded. Thayer does not limit it, and neither do the Scriptures.

Now concerning Luke 4:18 and Hebrews 4:2, you said this word is also euagglizo! How does this add support to the prophesy word in question?

Your problem is that you're handling these things with your eyes shut. If you had taken an ed. psych. course you would have been introduced to the hierarchy of learning (Dr. B. Bloom). There are six levels </font>

• knowledge (most basic)</font>
• comprehension</font>
• application</font>
• analysis</font>
• synthesis</font>
• evaluation (most advanced)</font>

Now where you're hanging up is at the analysis and synthesis levels. (Actually, your violence to the Scriptural accounts you used to support Pagan-friendly Worship—especially in regard to the Parable of the Good "Sodomite"—and your complete misaprehension of Thayer leaves your comprehension and application abilities in question, but because I'm such a nice guy, I'll give those to you. )

Once these passages are analyzed, the relationships between them are clear and inferences can be drawn.

The interrelationships in these passages cry out. Moses was a prophet, yet very little of his teachings have anything to do with prediction. Jesus is the Prophet that the Lord raised up like unto Moses. Again, the bulk of Christ's teachings are not predictive. They are both called prophets, yet what is the defining characteristic of their roles? They preached the Gospel.

For unto us was the Gospel preached AS WELL as unto them.... The passage in Luke parallels Christ's preaching with the role of the prophet as defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 14:3.

So Paul wrote Hebrews? That's funny!

Puh-leeze! Yer reachin'. As if you'd know. Click on the link below and see my footnote at the bottom of that post. Note also, the date.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000228#000003

Ancient scholarship and tradition assign Hebrews to Paul. It's easier than saying "the author of Hebrews," or "the Apostle."

In regard to 1 Peter 4:11 you said: This verse merely says that we should exercise our gift with the aid of God alone. What does this have to do with prophesy. No where in this chapter is prophesying even mentioned!

There's that comprehension thing again. How on God's green earth you do you get these things? The word prophecy does not have to be mentioned. It is directly referred to in the phrase "oracles of God." Peter is not saying we are to speak "with God's help," but as God's mouthpiece in truth and faithfulness. Go back to your Greek dictionary and look up the word for prophet and prophecy again. This takes no analysis or synthesis. It is stated rather simply.

Now to quote renowned authorities on the subject:

Matthew Henry:

Adam Clarke

John Calvin

John Gill

And what more shall I say? Who else shall I quote? I can't find a commentator who says otherwise. It seems that I am in agreement with the consensus of scholarship on the subject, and you are not.

Now, back to the original issue. The Scriptures state plainly that it is as we prophesy that the Spirit reveals the "relevance" of God's Word to an individual. It is not by making friends with them or going to the local pub.

 

Oh most wise and learned Aaron. I have a question for you. Are we allowed to go to family gatherings where our relatives are unsaved? Exactly what are our dealings with unsaved relatives limited to? Also, how does one infiltrate a foreign culture such as a rainforest tribe without getting to know the people and share their burdens and such. I know that you are wisdom is above all here so I am sure you have experience in this area and can convert heathens without ever knowing a shred of personal information about them.Care to expound?

 

I think you'd better, obviously you're struggling for an answer to Aaron's scriptural arguments.

What makes you think that Aaron is not an effective witness, is it the fact that he limits his methods to those found in Scripture? The Lord will bless an obedient servant. Maybe Aaron prefers to give God the Glory for those who are converted as a result of his witness.

 

Leading people to a false Christ is in actuality leading people away from the true Christ.

 

Some missionaries have spent years in other countries before seeing a soul saved. I can just imagine Aaron going into a foreign country:

1) "Heathen people of a primitive barbaric culture, put down your spears and gather unto me".

2) "I have here a contract which contains all the rules and regulations required to qualify you for eternal paradise"

3) "Repent now wicked people and follow the statutes contained within. Do I have any takers?"

4) "No? Oh well, the seed has been planted. I leave you all to your inevitable doom."

 

I have a Master of Education degree in counseling psychology from one of the top schools in the Southeast. I have completed a year of doctoral studies in counseling psychology at one of the three top programs in the world.

And that is no small accomplishment. I admire the way you made use of the opportunities that God has given you. BTW, the Taxonomy of Learning thing was just a way to jab at you. I don't buy into that all the way, I just didn't know how to get your attention.

Feel free to jab back. You should know by now that I have a thick skin.

The prophesy argument is a red herring.

Huh? Let's look at this again. You characterized Christ's relationship with the Samaritan woman as one of "befriending." I said Christ came to her as a prophet, then quoted Paul's statements as to the effectiveness of prophecy. Then you said we don't prophesy anymore. I said, "Yeah, we do."

"No, we don't."

"Yeah, we do."

"Nuh-uh!"

"Uh-huh.!"

"Nuh-uh!"

"Uh-huh."

"Prove-it, prophet-boy!"

So I did.

How can you call this a red herring? It bears directly on the methods extolled by Crampton. He said:

Paul blows Crampton right out of the sky.

[ July 05, 2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]