Pagan Ignorance

[Bismarck]

John 9
40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.​

Heathens sin through ignorance.

"Hardened Criminals" sin through willful knowledge.

 

[Deacon]

Still all are accountable in proportion to the light given.

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. "
Romans 1:19-20 ESV

Rob

 

[Linda64]

Still all are accountable in proportion to the light given.

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. "
Romans 1:19-20 ESV

Rob

AMEN Bro Rob!:thumbs:

Here's another verse:

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

 

[DHK]

John 9
40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.​

Heathens sin through ignorance.

"Hardened Criminals" sin through willful knowledge.

Heathens don't sin through ignorance, and that is not what that verse means. Here is what the Scripture teaches:

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
--God's moral law is written on the heart of every man (heathen or not), so that wherever you go, you find that man innately knows that it is wrong to steal, wrong to commit adultery, wrong to murder, etc. God's moral law is written on every man's heart. Their conscience bears witness to the truth.
--Romans 1:20. They are without excuse.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Correct DHK.

The pagan (or heathen) has conscience....and he even violates THAT.

 

[Bismarck]

IF you were blind, you would have no sin (John 9:41)

NOBODY actually is blind (Rom 1:19-20)



As for Linda's quote re: "judging", that is not fully relevant b/c it is conditional — if you judge, then you are inexcusable...

However, we now see why they are inexcusable: John 9:41 + Rom 1:19-20 shows that nobody is blind, all see. Hence, are all culpable.


As for DHK's point, Romans 2 reads:

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Doesn't this imply that there are 2 types of Gentiles, those who "sin without the law", and die in their sins, a universal Law (Rom 6:23)...

and those who instinctively do the Law, having it written on their hearts?

It certainly doesn't "feel" right, but doesn't Rom 2:16 say that only the latter have consciences? To wit, only the "righteous gentiles" who instinctively heed the Law b/c it is already ingrained in their hearts, only those gentiles have consciences which will bear witness on Doom's Day? Only they have consciences, that will reveal on Doom's Day those times they listened to their hearts, and those times they over-rode their hearts for worldly gain?

Those unrighteous goyim who "sin without the law" (v.12) die in their sins, and also have no consciences.

 

[DHK]

As for DHK's point, Romans 2 reads:

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Doesn't this imply that there are 2 types of Gentiles, those who "sin without the law", and die in their sins, a universal Law (Rom 6:23)...
and those who instinctively do the Law, having it written on their hearts?
[/quote]
No, not at all. Romans 6:23 applies to all, Jew and Gentile alike--the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Every person by nature knows when they sin. Every person has "the law" written on their hearts. I don't have to teach my children how to lie. They do it instinctively. They are born sinners, and they know when they do wrong. I am the one that has to teach them to tell the truth.

The Jews already had the truth, the law of God, not only written on their hearts, but written and expounded in their Torah. Their condemnation would be all the greater.

It certainly doesn't "feel" right, but doesn't Rom 2:16 say that only the latter have consciences? To wit, only the "righteous gentiles" who instinctively heed the Law b/c it is already ingrained in their hearts, only those gentiles have consciences which will bear witness on Doom's Day? Only they have consciences, that will reveal on Doom's Day those times they listened to their hearts, and those times they over-rode their hearts for worldly gain?

No, God is no respector of persons. He is speaking of all Gentiles, of all the world. He is not excluding anyone. All men are sinners. All men sin by choice. All men have the law written on their hearts. All men violate their own conscience (which God also gave them) when they sin. All men have an innnate knowledge of God given to them by God, displayed through nature, and are without excuse when they sin against him. (See (Romans 1:18-20; Psalms 19:1-3; 58:3; 51:5; Rom.3:9-12)

Those unrighteous goyim who "sin without the law" (v.12) die in their sins, and also have no consciences.

If a person has "no conscience" so to speak, it is only because they have continually hardened their heart against God. It is not because God did not give them one. Read from Romans 1:20 to the end of the chapter for the full story to answer that question.

I would still like the answer to this question (as others also do)?

Is Jesus Christ deity (God)?