Pain and Suffering On the Cross

[JonC]

Greetings brothers. My apologies to anyone that feels like this topic is the equivalent of kicking a dead horse. . I am seeking honest viewpoints though.

My inquiry is about the topic of the pain and suffering Christ took on, in our stead.

Questions
#1. Did Christ suffer on the Cross?
#2. If Christ suffered on the Cross, was it in our stead?

and this is the main question

#3. If Christ did suffer on the cross...was that suffering a result of (A) taking on our sin, i.e, the pain, suffering, and death that is a result of our sin; OR (B) was that pain, suffering, and death from God's wrath, i.e., punishment?

The distinction between (A) and (B) is to inquire into... from what source does Christ's 'suffering' come? Is that 'suffering' coming from the work of sin and Christ taking it on for us? Or is that suffering coming from 'wrath' and punishment.

Looking for reasoning and verses.

Peace to you brothers

11What good is a dead horse if you can't kick him?


1. Yes.
2. No
3. (A)

1. Jesus suffered the wages of sin (death..."returning to dust") on the cross.
2. No. Jesus shared our infirmity and bore our sin. No passage says "instead of us".
3. Jesus suffered thewages of sin ("sin begats death"). God's wrath is more severe, and it is poured out by God rather than produced by death.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings again JonC. Thank you for your contribution to the thread. I hope you slept better than I did.

11What good is a dead horse if you can't kick him?

Funny!

2. No. Jesus shared our infirmity and bore our sin. No passage says "instead of us"

Trying to get clarity here. You wrote "No. Jesus shared our infirmity and bore our sins". Do you mean (a) 'shared with us each of our own specific infirmities' (a co-share), or (b) 'shared in infirmities in general, not specific ones' (a like-share)?

3. Jesus suffered thewages of sin ("sin begats death"). God's wrath is more severe, and it is poured out by God rather than produced by death.

What I hear you saying is, there is a wrath of God and that wrath is at the final judgement. However, what Christ took on at the cross was not the wrath of God but the pain and suffering of sin.

I had later in this thread presented a deeper question... Is Christ taking on sin and the full affects of this sin (the full affects of alienation, death, pain, suffering) while on the cross? Do you think Christ took on all these points? You mentioned death in your post. So that would be a yes. But what about the others? Also, do you think Christ took on any kind of non-corporal pain and suffering (like alienation)?


Peace to you brother

 

[JonC]

Greetings again JonC. Thank you for your contribution to the thread. I hope you slept better than I did.


Funny!


Trying to get clarity here. You wrote "No. Jesus shared our infirmity and bore our sins". Do you mean (a) 'shared with us each of our own specific infirmities' (a co-share), or (b) 'shared in infirmities in general, not specific ones' (a like-share)?


What I hear you saying is, there is a wrath of God and that wrath is at the final judgement. However, what Christ took on at the cross was not the wrath of God but the pain and suffering of sin.

I had later in this thread presented a deeper question... Is Christ taking on sin and the full affects of this sin (the full affects of alienation, death, pain, suffering) while on the cross? Do you think Christ took on all these points? You mentioned death in your post. So that would be a yes. But what about the others? Also, do you think Christ took on any kind of non-corporal pain and suffering (like alienation)?


Peace to you brother

By sharing our infirmity I do mean God with us (Emmanuel). But not individual sins. Sinful actions are not material things that can be transferred or shared. But sin has wages, sin begats death. He shared the consequences of our sins.

Yes, you understand what I mean. On the cross Christ suffered under the power of sin and death (the "powers of darkness", the wages we earn). This is produced by death. Judgment is a direct action by God.

I do believe that Jesus was alienated from His people, those He came to save. But I do not belueve Jesus was alienated or separated from God.

This type of separation is related to Judgment and is called the Second death. Jesus died under the powers of darkness because of our sins and was judged righteous, vindicated, and sat at the right hand of God


Man has the same fate - it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

But judgment goes two ways - vindication in Christ or the second death.

 

[Paleouss]

Thank you for the clarity JonC

I do have one more question if you would allow.

But I do not belueve Jesus was alienated or separated from God.

On the cross Jesus said, (Mat 27:46 NKJV) 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Does this verse, Matt 27:46, indicate alienation from God? Some in history have labeled it 'God turning His head away' or 'separation from the father' (separation being alienation). The phrase in Matt 27 does appear to be one of alienation from God, imo. Alienation from God is a byproduct of sin, is it not? And didn't mankind, due to slavery to sin, experience alienation from God? If Christ took on at the cross what we have taken on under the slavery to sin....wouldn't Christ also take on and experience alienation from God?

What do you think?

Peace to you brother

 

[JonC]

Thank you for the clarity JonC

I do have one more question if you would allow.

On the cross Jesus said, (Mat 27:46 NKJV) 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Does this verse, Matt 27:46, indicate alienation from God? Some in history have labeled it 'God turning His head away' or 'separation from the father' (separation being alienation). The phrase in Matt 27 does appear to be one of alienation from God, imo. Alienation from God is a byproduct of sin, is it not? And didn't mankind, due to slavery to sin, experience alienation from God? If Christ took on at the cross what we have taken on under the slavery to sin....wouldn't Christ also take on and experience alienation from God?

What do you think?

Peace to you brother

No, that verse does not mean an alienation from God.

I believe that Psalm 22 makes this clear. It begins "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?". In the psalm the Servant is forsaken to suffer, but recognizes that God is with Him. He calls out to God trusting that God will deliver Him. And God does.

Jesus was forsaken to suffer under the powers of sin and death, but God delivered Him (not from death but through death).


Alienation from God is not a byproduct of sin. In the Garden Adam sinned and because of that sin was fated to return to dust.

But then God's judgment was to cast Adam out of the Garden.

Alienation from God is God's judgment. The "wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord".

So I do believe that Jesus experienced the wages of sin (death) but when judged rather than being cast out He was vindicated, given a name above every name, and sat at the right hand of God.

 

[Paleouss]

JonC. Thank you for providing your insight and wisdom.

Alienation from God is not a byproduct of sin.

So it is sin that enslaves but God that alienated use (Adam) from Him due to sin.

If God initiated Adam's alienation through judgment and that judgement continued even until Moses even though none had sinned like the offense of Adam. Did the Law of Moses (Moral Law) do something additional? (trying to stay on the alienation topic).

Alienation from God is God's judgment

1. Is there pain and suffering that we experience because of alienation from God?
2. Some say alienation from God is the worst suffering there is.... do hold this?
3. If alienation from God is the worse suffering there is... can it really be said that Christ didn't taste of this suffering for us in some way?

So I do believe that Jesus experienced the wages of sin (death) but when judged rather than being cast out He was vindicated, given a name above every name, and sat at the right hand of God.

Do you think He 'took on' our judgement in any way. (since we had already been judged to suffer the alienation at the garden)?


Peace to you brother.

 

[JonC]

JonC. Thank you for providing your insight and wisdom.

So it is sin that enslaves but God that alienated use (Adam) from Him due to sin.

If God initiated Adam's alienation through judgment and that judgement continued even until Moses even though none had sinned like the offense of Adam. Did the Law of Moses (Moral Law) do something additional? (trying to stay on the alienation topic).


1. Is there pain and suffering that we experience because of alienation from God?
2. Some say alienation from God is the worst suffering there is.... do hold this?
3. If alienation from God is the worse suffering there is... can it really be said that Christ didn't taste of this suffering for us in some way?


Do you think He 'took on' our judgement in any way. (since we had already been judged to suffer the alienation at the garden)?


Peace to you brother.

The Law showed us our state, taught us that we could not meet the standard. I suppose you could say the Law constituted a command those under the Law transgressed (as Adam transgressed God's command). But still sin reigned over even those not under the Law.

Sin is man trying to alienate himself from God. And yes, it brings pain and suffering.

In this life we are not truely alienated from God (God's blessings shine on the just and wicked alike to some degree). But yes, that "Second death" when the wicked are cast out is the worst punishment one could experience in my opinion.

Christ died for all man. But this was the product of sin ("sin begats death"). When it comes to divine judgment Jesus was vindicated, exalted and given a name above every name, seated at the right hand of God.

That is also our hope in Christ, that while we suffer the wages of sin we will be vindicated in Him.