Parable of the Virgins.

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Daniel Dunivan:
wp,

I think you are exactly right about what is the pivotal point in the parable: the "oil". However, remember that this parable (as are many parables in Matthew) is ordered toward following Jesus by doing his commandments. The Jesus we see in Matthew is so concerned about profession and heart as he is with practice. The original readers of Matthew were dealing with a great deal of persecution and apostacy seems to have been a major concern for Matt. I think that it would be most accurate to say that "those who do the will of the Father" are those who profess faith in the face of this pesecution (there's your profession: it would make a dandy illustration for your sermon if you could weave it into the fabric of your argument). There is nothing quite like preaching about Jesus' sermons. In this instance, you really have an opportunity to point wishy-washy believers to an authentically lived Christian life.

Daniel, Thank you for the encouragement, when I preach, I shoot at faith, because good works are the offspring of faith. Correct? Blessing, WP

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

wp,

I'm not quabling with your theological position. You are exactly right about that; however, my question is whether this the point of the parable. Be sensitive about bringing theology too quickly into interpretation. There is a way that you can include your position from above in the sermon without forcing it into the parable itself.

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Claudia4Christ:
A time of waiting intervenes, faith is tried; and when the cry is heard, "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him," many are unready. They have no oil in their vessels with their lamps. They are destitute of the Holy Spirit.

Without the Spirit of God a knowledge of His word is of no avail.

What great wisdom is this? Faith is tried! Blessings, WP

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Daniel Dunivan:
wp,

I'm not quabling with your theological position. You are exactly right about that; however, my question is whether this the point of the parable. Be sensitive about bringing theology too quickly into interpretation. There is a way that you can include your position from above in the sermon without forcing it into the parable itself.

Sorry, I get a little freaked out around here sometimes! I see your point! Very true.

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Daniel Dunivan:
[ I think that it would be most accurate to say that "those who do the will of the Father" are those who profess faith in the face of this pesecution (there's your profession: it would make a dandy illustration for your sermon if you could weave it into the fabric of your argument). There is nothing quite like preaching about Jesus' sermons. :[/QB]

Daniel, I'm really hearing you here. thanks Blessings,WP

 

[Me2]

another sidebar...

I Will Probably Lose Someone Here..

Originally posted by Claudia4Christ:
A time of waiting intervenes, faith is tried; and when the cry is heard, "Behold, the
Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him," many are unready. They have no oil in their
vessels with their lamps. They are destitute of the Holy Spirit.

The Time of Waiting implies Faith Being Tried..In this Case..A (Re) Affirmation That Jesus Is Lord.

which Brings me To 1 Thessalonians 4:16

4:16 For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then We Which Are Alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Have You Ever Been Around Someone When They Accept and Recognize That Jesus Is Lord ?

Its Party Time !

(those Dead In Christ..Not Recognize That Their New Man (Spirit) Has Been Ressurrected)
(Meet In The Clouds..Witnesses..other Btrothers and Sisters who are "In The Spirit".)

Again another scripture which I Dont hold as End Time Prophecy..but Everyday events..


But..Is There A Connection with the virgins Parable ?

Me2

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Graceforever:
Wade in a little deeper Pastor Larry, the water's fine.....

The problem is not the water ... so long as it is water. The problem is when the water becomes something else. Look at four pages of pure speculation about something that is most likely not even intended in the parable. The point of the parable is that some people weren't ready. Therefore, all should strive to be ready for the coming of the Lord. What else needs to be said??

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Originally posted by Graceforever:
Look at four pages of pure speculation about something that is most likely not even intended in the parable. The point of the parable is that some people weren't ready. Therefore, all should strive to be ready for the coming of the Lord. What else needs to be said??

I see your point Pastor Larry, so please don't misunderstand, when I try to understand your position. I do not mean to preach speculation, my interpretation of this parable is in the light of other scripture as I am sure you are aware. Now, if all we are supposed to learn from this parable is to be ready for Christ return, then why does the Lord not just give us verse 13 and leave the parable out? I would believe that the parable is meant to teach something about,"how" we are to be ready for the coming of the Lord. I am not afraid to interpret this parable, as I feel, the scriptures, or the Gospel, as a whole, interprets it for me. The interpretation of the parable is given in the scripture as a whole, the joy of it is that the Lord has put this truth into a story that clearly illustrates certain truth about preparing our hearts before His return. Agreed? If not, please help me understand your position further. Blessing, WP

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

Pastor Larry,

The spirit of your argument was found in the scholarship on parables during much of the last 100 years (this is being overturned by many). However, there is one important thing that WP pointed out that you are missing. Those who claim that a parable only has one point say that the point cannot be separated from parable itself. "The moral of the story" is not what Jesus was intending. Instead, he was telling a story which can communicate at various levels of understanding (pharisees, publicans, average lay people, etc.) The whole point for preaching in parables is to have this polyvalent meaning for the audienceS. It is for this reason that recent parable studies have affirmed the varied meanings found within these remarkable short narrative fictions. They still caution allegorization, but it is allowed in certain circumstances in controled ways (as I outlined earlier).

Grace and Peace,

Danny

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Me2:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Again another scripture which I Dont hold as End Time Prophecy..but Everyday events..


But..Is There A Connection with the virgins Parable ?

Me2[/QB]

Me2 "the dead shall rise first", is this "everyday events"? You lost me on this one. blessing, WP

 

[Me2]

Howdy WP,
I Was Cross referencing The activities of being buried with Christ in death (spiritually).
We have the example of baptism to symbolize that process. Some people are buried in death
and stay in until they realize Christ was resurrected by God. (Jesus is Lord).

This stage lies between child and young man stage. Its trials requiring the recognition of submission. or pronouncing Jesus Is Lord, and expressing love for their fellow believer.
(1 John)

The virgin parable allowed 5 to enter through the veil, or "door to the kingdom".
5 were not allowed to enter. Also between child and young man stage is the Holy Spirit baptism..They are sealed by the Holy Spirit...and have you read in some parables 30,60,100.
Well this is 60%.. congradulations.
You are raised from the "dead in Christ". Just like baptism. A new man..or recognition of receieving your new spirit.

This is the commonality in fellowship. While in the sanctuary.
Love for the brethren
Raised from the dead "in Christ"...a new spirit
Baptism by holy Spirit
Young Man Stage
Jesus is Lord

There is a definite change from child to Young man stage..
Paul is saying in 1 Thess To be ready for when fellowship is occurring..Dont Miss out !
When you Recognise Some one Advancing and Being "Raised From The Dead" They are going to be excited, and you'll be excited with them.

in 1 Thess 2:19 He says..
For what is our joy, or crown of rejoicing?
Are not even ye in the presence of our LORD JESUS CHRIST at his coming?

or in 1 thess chapter 5, Paul explains what is happening during that period of time.
even in 2 Thess Chapter 2 Paul again restates what is happening from another viewpoint.

Theres a Falling Away...The man of sin revealed...he's sitting on The throne..where?..
inside You!..your the temple..its the old man..and he's getting ready to be abdicated...
by your recognition of his untimely death....He falls away. and Jesus Is Declared Lord!

Its The same story...In between child and young man stage..and the Throning of Jesus as Lord in our hearts..Its everyday stuff for our brothers and sisters. Everybody follows the same plan. The same growth of their perceptions of faith and understanding..

I could say more but..the process of proving submission to God has to be tried by Fire.
and there is hopefully a ressurrection day. And you would know exactly what I mean if It's occurred to You. These scriptures was Pauls way of Describing that event..
Not The End of the World.

Romans 6:3-14 Speaks of Burial and death with Christ...

Me2

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

Me2,

Could you succinctly say what you are proposing. Are you saying that the passage in 1 Thess. is about submission to Christ?

 

[Me2]

Hi Danny,
You Met Christ Long before this event...
When God "opens" your eyes to the law..its purpose was to help you recognize, your dead.
and the introduction of the gospel of grace..Gods Son..Jesus,. and next become
buried in death "in Christ"..waiting for The father to bring you to life...you wait on God.

Its the same as the OT temple or tabernacle services. You cannot enter into the veil unless your approved by God.

The virgins had to be of a level of faith and understanding to be a part of temple sevices as... ie trimming wicks and filling oil.

The disobedient or foolish virgins were lacking understanding

1 john calls these people children.."in christ" yet not capable of understanding
They need to advance to the next level of understanding which is Young man stage.

Faith is tried between these stages of growth...think "tribulation". They have to agree with the sovereignty of God or Submit to a Lord...Jesus Is Lord...
You prove your faith of submission by expressing love towards you fellow believer.
...and Stating (by the Holy Spirit) Jesus is Lord.

That was the difference of the wise and foolish virgins...the foolish virgins did not submit and understand that Jesus was lord and they would'nt allow God to live through them..thus not being able to express love for there fellow believers.

But For The Wise Virgins...

Jesus Is Risen In Your Heart........He Is Lord...You (Jesus) Are Risen From The Dead

and were "prepared to Enter the door (kingdom,sanctuary) in a moment of fellowship.
They had oil for there lamps..the holy spirit inside them expressing..Jesus is Lord.

and to think theres still another tribulation to go (The great tribulation)
The stage between young man and father stage....
....or entering the veil seperating the holy of holies...oohhh

You see we're not to be Ratured in times of trouble..We're to be proven..Tried by fire.
Our wisdom NEEDS to be proven with understanding.
Christianity is a process.
Understanding God, and being Tried, and advancing from level to level should be a Lifestyle.

What does Paul say ?.."count it all joy when your tried".

Theres a lot of different ways that we can express these things in words..
But God "has to open" our eyes..Its his choice and timing and methods.

Yes, 1 thess 4:16 is about advancing thru faith and meeting "The Lord".
Its not about rapture or end times..But its a moment for joy and fellowship.
With our brothers and sisters "in The Lord"..Thats the Kingdom of Heaven !

Wouldn't you say in times of trouble, one should'nt be looking for God to rescue you out from the trouble..but look for God to join you in the trouble.. To work it out together....
.....So why are people looking to be rescued?

Thats what the questions of the churches of thessalonians..what about those people who don't care?..those who "fell asleep" or are "dead" (in Christ)..Paul was gingerly saying..Its between God and the individual..You be ready to fellowship with those who overcome and are risen in Christ.

He Truly is A Living God...

Me2

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by Me2:
Some people are buried in death
and stay in until they realize Christ was resurrected by God. (Jesus is Lord).

This stage lies between child and young man stage. Its trials requiring the recognition of submission. or pronouncing Jesus Is Lord, and expressing love for their fellow believer.
(1 John)





Its The same story...In between child and young man stage..and the Throning of Jesus as Lord in our hearts..
I could say more but..the process of proving submission to God has to be tried by Fire.
and there is hopefully a ressurrection day. And you would know exactly what I mean if It's occurred to You.
Romans 6:3-14 Speaks of Burial and death with Christ...

Me2[/QB]

Me2, Now Me2, I have been really kind to you, but you have put the accusation aginst me that I have not recieved Jesus as the Lord of my life by which I can be ressurected. When I was baptised Me2, I was not only put under the water but I was also brought back up, as a symbol of my death with Christ I was put under, as a symbol of my life with Christ I was brought back up.If I am correct, you are attempting to say that the ressurection of the believer is only a spiritual and not an actual event. Here, we have to part ways.1Corinthians15:35-49 notice verse42 The actual body is raised in incorruption. Is your body made whole already? If so, I have certainly not reached your level of holiness. Also, you seem to make a distintion of those who have accepted Jesus and those who have acknowledged His Lordship. I would say that the scriptures are clear that there is no accepting Jesus apart from Him being also Lord. Romans 10:9-13 notice verse9 "the Lord Jesus". Lastly, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not something that is accuired by knowledge or submission, where you attain to a certain level of spirituality, but rather it is received by "faith". Galatians 3:2-9 I would thus have to disagree with your interpretation of the parable. For us to reconcile on the interpretaton, it would seem to me that we would have to discuss more theology than time permits so for now I appreciate your thoughts and time. God Bless, WP p.s. The false teaching that Paul addressed in 2Thess., is that some taught that the ressurection had already happened.

 

[Me2]

Hi WP,
Please Calm Down...Are you trying make it seem as though Im confused ?...Sorry but everythings OK here. and Im not accusing anyone of anything. What I say is my viewpoints.
However complicated they are. The Bible repeates itself in many ways..

This was one of them..The virgins not being able to enter through the veil of tabernacle because of lack of understanding. John expressed the child, young man and father stages.
I compared the two together.

Everything you have of God is "by Faith". No ones been resurrected ,but Christ.
No one can receive a new spirit until the resurrection.
Unless you can put one of those puppies inside a body that still contains Sin. (nah)
although We live "by faith" as though we have It now.."In Christ".

Lordship means Submission...When Jesus said many called, few chosen...He meant it.
He meant many didn't accept him as sovereign Lord.
Remember, He picked them, They didnt have to pick Him.
At the moment, their not submitting. Jesus Christ ..OK....Lord..?

And It Is a process whether anyone recognizes it or not. Rom 10:9 says accept Jesus as Lord..But, Its an entire process..Thats just one aspect. Albeit an important one.

Lets not mention..God drawing you, Giving you faith, Opening your eyes, Convincing you that you are a sinner, Putting you in Christ, Raising You from the dead "by faith in Christ". Becoming sealed by the Holy Spirit...Then You Can Say Jesus Is Lord..It Aint Easy and for some, It can take a Lifetime..some never

Faith is required to understand anything of God. Advancing through levels of sanctification requires wisdom, understanding, faith of God, and experience, to prove your understanding.
Acknowledging sovereignty is submitting..that Jesus Is Lord

Who knows what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?..We know that if you proclaim Jesus Is Lord...It happened to you..Thats called proof. and its required to advance to this level as described in 1 John. Young Man Stage

Its the same problem in Galations as you described in Rom..its Mixing Law with Jesus ..Salvation, ok, We can accept the propitiation but to advance any further..nope.

We need the submission to eliminate the laws and rules that carnal self wants to follow. Submission is 100%...No Rules (at least man made).

A Lot of people squeek by being acceptable by accepting Jesus as Christ..But accepting Him as Lord is a Whole new Ball Game..A Whole New Level of Christianity

Nice Talking With You WP,

Me2

 

[Me2]

sorry. double post

[ October 21, 2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]