Paradise

[Rex77]

Abraham's Bosom was not alongside hell. It was afar off... a great distance from hell.

There was a great gulf between the two places...

But still in sight the rich man could see Lazarus.

 

[JustChristian]

To carry it further...

To day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

To day... this day.

But Jesus had not ascended to the Father three days later from what He told Mary at the tomb.

Is it possible He ascended into the third heaven to deliver the thief to Paradise 'To day' and then returned to the earthen soil to set captivity captive that were in Abraham's Bosom?

Just a few things I have been reflecting on the last couple hours.

Where does the Bible discuss the 3rd heaven?

 

[Rex77]

Where does the Bible discuss the 3rd heaven?

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 

[zrs6v4]

I have to ask so what is your opinions. If you beleive there is a literal 3rd heaven meaning there is 1, 2 and 3 are you saying that there is heaven1 the new earth 2 and the 3rd heaven 3? does anyone disagree or interperet the third heaven differently?

I think the third heaven is paradise and a holding place for the saints present with Christ until he returns for the new heaven and new earth after judgment.

which would also explain prison as a torment place holding the unsaved.

while the third heaven is much more awesome and perfect than earth it is still a holding place for the return of Jesus. And on the flip side torment is much worse than earth..

The third heaven could also be the gate of heaven? and while you are there awaiting judgement (being awesome and overwhelming of joy still) there could be the other place, prison/ holding cell/tartarus where you also await judgment for hell. This also may explain why Jesus will be wiping away your tears because you may see this place before you enter heaven and be upset for the last time until you enter heaven and are fully sanctified?

I dont know, but I just wanted to throw that around

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The dead in Christ do not see the people who have died in their sin. Hell is a place of outer darkness.

People in hell can see out. That is why the rich man was able to see Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom.
People outside cannot see in because of the darkness of that place.

 

[zrs6v4]

Not sure what to get there other than he told Thomas to touch him. We must also look at the fact that Scripture does not say that Thomas actually touched Him.

I believe there are two possibilities here:

1) Jesus spoke the very words that Thomas had stated reminding Thomas of what he said and Thomas, at that point believed... without even touching the Lord physically.

or

2) Jesus may have ascended to the Father some time after telling Mary He had not and before telling Thomas to touch Him.

I lean toward the first explanation.

2 different situations and yes one in flesh and one in spirit

1- Thomas had doubts so by touching Jesus He could be free of doubts and see obviously (and a Big point for us to make to cults that dont beleive in ressurection of the flesh).
2- Mary I think it was that He did not want her to draw close to Him and get all upset but to relax and to let him go but in the mean time go tell the others that He was ascending to the Father so they would be prepared for Him (kind of a prewarning for more miracles and faith testing.

 

[Rex77]

zrs6v4


Answer 1 1st heaven the contains the atmosphere clouds.

2. 2nd heaven contains stars.

3. 3rd heaven Gods abode.


3rd heaven is also abode of all saints OT and Nt who have died.

Heb 12:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[zrs6v4]

The dead in Christ do not see the people who have died in their sin. Hell is a place of outer darkness.

People in hell can see out. That is why the rich man was able to see Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom.
People outside cannot see in because of the darkness of that place.

I dont doubt you but do you have scripture off hand that backs that up? if you dont, dont worry about it I am just curious to read for myself. I always beleived in heaven you cannot see hell of course, but why in hell could you see heaven? Why can Abraham talk to Him?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I dont doubt you but do you have scripture off hand that backs that up? if you dont, dont worry about it I am just curious to read for myself. I always beleived in heaven you cannot see hell of course, but why in hell could you see heaven? Why can Abraham talk to Him?

Luke 16 records that the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham. But it does not say they saw him.
It is obvious that in heaven, there is light. For, Jesus Christ is the light of that City.

But hell is a place of outer darkness as Scripture declares.

I believe those in hell see paradise in the third heaven.

 

[TCGreek]

Randy Alcorn wrote a Bestseller on Heaven.

Maybe someone should try to write one on Hell.

 

[zrs6v4]

Luke 16 records that the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham. But it does not say they saw him.
It is obvious that in heaven, there is light. For, Jesus Christ is the light of that City.

But hell is a place of outer darkness as Scripture declares.

I believe those in hell see paradise in the third heaven.

Yep thanks, I think what I was confused about was that Abraham was talking to the rich man. but your right it didnt say they saw him, but the rich man could see them.

 

[Allan]

I dont doubt you but do you have scripture off hand that backs that up? if you dont, dont worry about it I am just curious to read for myself. I always beleived in heaven you cannot see hell of course, but why in hell could you see heaven? Why can Abraham talk to Him?

Actually, the first heaven is what we call the atmosphere or the sky:

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.

It is where the birds fly:

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The Second Heaven is where the Stars are (also it is called 'second' because it was created second -first is in vs 9 this one is in vs 14)

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

It references the Sun, moon, and stars in the above. And again clearer here:

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

The Third Heaven is God's dwelling that is not referenced in the same manner (physically) as the other two are but is given a spiritual reference that is beyond this plain of existence yet still in tandom with it:

Gen 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful [is] this place! this [is] none other but the house of God, and this [is] the gate of heaven.

Refering to Jacobs dream where he saw the angels of God accending and decending the ladder to heaven. Now this heaven is different because He sees angels going into and out of it. Also in verse 13 Jacob sees the Lord standing above the ladder.

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

The third Heaven is the dwelling of God in the spiritual relm.

Psa 11:4 The LORD [is] in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne [is] in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Some even surmise there is a 'type' of location regarding it and it's designation (though not specific location) is above or beyond the 2nd Heaven due to verse like these:

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Psa 102:19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;

among others, as well as Pauls usage of 'third' heaven which places it beyond the second.

 

[John Toppass]

Just a thought or two in how I feel about 1st, 2nd and 3rd Heaven. Note: I don't pretend to know all the answers and I am open to other interpretations.

As Christians, we who follow in faith, know that we are going to join our Lord Jesus for eternity. The fact that we know the Holy Spirit's presence and have that saving relationship again with God thru Jesus Christ is the 1st Heaven.

When we leave this earth (by death or rapture) we still will stand judgement by God. The anticipation of Jesus being our personal mediator will justify and allow us to escape the wrath of God's judgement through the blood of Christ our Lord. This I think could be what is called the 2nd Heaven.

The 3rd Heaven will be where we are rewarded for any works that we have. This will be the Heaven where God is at home. We will worship and praise God in ways we cannot even begin to understand in this fulfilling relationship. We are heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven we will have that eternal, intimate relationship with our Abba Father, after-all we are his children.

Gives me a tingly, goose-bumpy feeling just thinking about it.

 

[Marcia]

I know Jesus told the Father that He was commending His Spirit into His hands, but He did say to Mary on the first day of the week:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Had He asecended to the Father before speaking to Mary, He would not have told her He had not yet ascended.

He had not ascended yet in his glorified body when he spoke to Mary, but maybe He had ascended.

 

[Marcia]

Just a thought or two in how I feel about 1st, 2nd and 3rd Heaven. Note: I don't pretend to know all the answers and I am open to other interpretations.

As Christians, we who follow in faith, know that we are going to join our Lord Jesus for eternity. The fact that we know the Holy Spirit's presence and have that saving relationship again with God thru Jesus Christ is the 1st Heaven.

When we leave this earth (by death or rapture) we still will stand judgement by God. The anticipation of Jesus being our personal mediator will justify and allow us to escape the wrath of God's judgement through the blood of Christ our Lord. This I think could be what is called the 2nd Heaven.

The 3rd Heaven will be where we are rewarded for any works that we have. This will be the Heaven where God is at home. We will worship and praise God in ways we cannot even begin to understand in this fulfilling relationship. We are heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven we will have that eternal, intimate relationship with our Abba Father, after-all we are his children.
.

Allan explained it correctly. The people in that time believed in 3 heavens - it was a common idea. The first was the atmosphere right around earth, the 2nd was where the stars were, and the third was way off where God dwells.

See
http://www.carm.org/questions/threeheavens.htm

 

[DrRandyGrace]

This is one of the most intelligent and thoughtful discussions I have seen on the Board. I must commend everyone for the great posts. If I may add a bit:

Lazarus and the rich man went to Hades, the place of the dead. As I understand it, Hades was divided into two parts: Torment and Abraham's Bossom. When Jesus died for our sins on Calvary's tree, He desceded into Hades and preached the Gospel to the souls in Abraham's Bosom. He then led them out of Hades into the presence of His heavenly Father and Torment was expanded to include all of Hades. Now, when a person dies, he, or she, either goes to Hades to await their eventual judgment and condemnation to gahenna (sp?) or he, or she, goes to be in the presence of the Father to await entrance into the New Jerusalem.

This is how I have taught it. This is how I believe it.

 

[skypair]

This is one of the most intelligent and thoughtful discussions I have seen on the Board. I must commend everyone for the great posts. If I may add a bit:

Lazarus and the rich man went to Hades, the place of the dead. As I understand it, Hades was divided into two parts: Torment and Abraham's Bossom. When Jesus died for our sins on Calvary's tree, He desceded into Hades and preached the Gospel to the souls in Abraham's Bosom. He then led them out of Hades into the presence of His heavenly Father and Torment was expanded to include all of Hades. Now, when a person dies, he, or she, either goes to Hades to await their eventual judgment and condemnation to gahenna (sp?) or he, or she, goes to be in the presence of the Father to await entrance into the New Jerusalem.

This is how I have taught it. This is how I believe it.

Right on, Dr Randy!! :thumbs:

Lately I've been wondering if 3rd heaven isn't just another dimension encompassing earth, heaven, and the universe. Here's why -- Rev 5:13. How were the praises heard in heaven of those "under the earth" and "in the sea" unless those could be perceived from 3rd heaven -- that is, from another dimension that is all around us?! How, indeed, do we have a "cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1) to what we do if not from a dimension that is "near." And how is God "not far" (Acts 17:27) from every one of us if He's not in a nearby dimension? Like John Topass says, it makes me tingly just thinking about it. What if my dearly departed mom is one of my witnesses?!

skypair

 

[Lukasaurus]

He had not ascended yet in his glorified body when he spoke to Mary, but maybe He had ascended.

This is the basis of one of the amazing truths regarding the Millennial Kingdom.

"When we see him, we shall be like him". When we are raptured and given glorified bodies, we shall be like Christ in his ressurection body. During the Millennium, those in glorified bodies ruling and reigning and serving Christ will be like him. The passage about Jesus not yet ascending is quite awe inspiring because of this.

Maybe you don't like my "science fiction eschatology" as I once heard it called, but it's Bible.

Jesus, when risen from the tomb, had not yet ascended to His Father to offer up the blood sacrifice. This is why he told Mary not to touch him. Yet less than 10 paragraphs later, on the same day, Jesus lets Thomas touch him and feel inside his side.

Jesus Christ had ascended to the third heaven, poured His blood over the mercy seat, and returned to Earth in a matter of hours, maybe minutes.

I do not believe that Jesus resurrection body had blood in it. He was flesh and bone. His side was not bleeding, and it's not bleeding now. The sacrifice has been offered and accepted by God.

So, our body, when we receive it of God, will be capable of the same things - teleportation, or at least, very fast travel by some supernatural means, as this passage shows, amongst other things.

 

[JustChristian]

Actually, the first heaven is what we call the atmosphere or the sky:

It is where the birds fly:


The Second Heaven is where the Stars are (also it is called 'second' because it was created second -first is in vs 9 this one is in vs 14)

It references the Sun, moon, and stars in the above. And again clearer here:


The Third Heaven is God's dwelling that is not referenced in the same manner (physically) as the other two are but is given a spiritual reference that is beyond this plain of existence yet still in tandom with it:

Refering to Jacobs dream where he saw the angels of God accending and decending the ladder to heaven. Now this heaven is different because He sees angels going into and out of it. Also in verse 13 Jacob sees the Lord standing above the ladder.

The third Heaven is the dwelling of God in the spiritual relm.

Some even surmise there is a 'type' of location regarding it and it's designation (though not specific location) is above or beyond the 2nd Heaven due to verse like these:


among others, as well as Pauls usage of 'third' heaven which places it beyond the second.

So really, the first two "heavens" are really secular terms. The third heaven is what Christians speak of when they talk about the afterlife.

 

[Zenas]

Randy Alcorn wrote a Bestseller on Heaven.

Maybe someone should try to write one on Hell.

It has already been done. Dante wrote The Divine Comedy early in the 14th Century. :type: