Parallel between Catholic and Charismatic

Ironic you should say that, Dr. Bob..the people in my village call them Jehovah's Witnesses in drag....they all wear long dresses, veils etc. These are not Christian people saying this.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Is an understanding of a trinity of the Godhead one
of the prerequisites for salvation?

If not, once someone is saved, if they do not have
a trinitarian understanding of the Godhead, do
they lose their salvation?

If not, once someone is saved, if they never
fully understand the Godhead, do they lose their
salvation?

If a person from the UPC repents, are they saved,
even though their doctrine says they are not until
they are baptized?

Is the Holy Spirit able to call someone in the UPC?

 

If we suppose ourselves into a corner, we best suppose ourselves out of it.

Salvation does not depend on a full understanding of every nuance of theology. We are here talking about a right understanding of God; the God of salvation. He would not call into untruth. Somewhere one must understand who Jesus is.

We read that not all who are called by His name will be known by Him. I firmly believe the scripture makes it plain unto Whom we are saved, and it happens to be a triune God.

Here is where the moniker, "once saved, always saved" does not reflect the true gospel and ought not to be used. Those who are truly saved WILL persevere to the end by God's continuing grace, so that we were once saved, and we are being saved and we will uttimately be saved. All a continuing act of one Sovereign God.


Cheers,

Jim

 

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

As many do.

 

Read the following, and you tell us...

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

1 John 2:18-23 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

1 John 4:1-6 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

2 John 1:7-11 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

 

Unfortunately, some Baptist Churches that I know are ALOT like both Catholic and Penticostal Churches.

They're like the Penticostals because they think Revival equals excitement, they only want the LOUD preachers that don't necessarily stick to a topic or get very "deep", they may not speak in tongues but they sure love to shout, whoop and holler during the service and use alot of "religious" jargon that the unsaved really wouldn't understand.

They're like the Catholics because they love their unBiblical traditions (I'm not referring to Baptism or The Lord's Supper) like hymns, service procedures, etc.

Just my observations...

 

ON the Calvinist charimatic point, New Frontiers International are charismatic 'denomination' in this country and beyond espousing a distinctively Reformed theology.

Are UPC the same as 'Oneness' Pentecostals? If so,they are most certainly heretics (IMHO of course )

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The Holy Spirit is called "the Power of the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is not introduced as a distinct person, as are the Father and the Son. It is rather like the power of God emanating from the Father and the Son, and is God’s active agent in the world. To say that the Holy Spirit is not a person is not to say that it is impersonal. It is the agency of God Himself. Agency is defined as a means of exerting power or influence — an instrumentality.


How is it possible for the Father and Christ to dwell in us and be in heaven at the same time? (I Corinthians 3:16,17)
They dwell in us in the presence of the Holy Spirit. It is not a third person dwelling in us, but the very essence of God Himself.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is personal, because it is an extension of God Himself. It is the way in which God can be omnipresent — that is, He can be on His throne and be in us at the same time. He dwells in us by His Spirit. This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is a third person, a third mind. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual presence, activity, power, and influence of God in the natural world.

 

Who, He, Helper....


John 14:16-17 ""And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever; 17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

John 14:26 ""But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

John 15:26 ""But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

John 16:7-14 ""Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."

Rom 5:3-5 "And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

1 Cor 2:10-14 "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1 Cor 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

1 Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?"

1 Cor 12:3-11 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

Eph 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Eph 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

2 Tim 1:14 "That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us."

Titus 3:5-6 "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"

 

If the Holy Spirit were an individual third person, then the Holy Spirit would be the father of Jesus, which he is NOT:

"...she (Mary) was found with child of the Holy Spirit" (Matt.1:18)

"...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20).

========

"And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yeilding seed after his kind, and the tree yeilding fruit whose seed was in itself, after his kind:....." (Gen. 1:11-12)

 

I have no idea what you imagine these obscure references to mean, especially the Genesis ones, which don't refer to the HOly Spirit at all...nor to any other member of the Triune God.. They hardly have any impact on the large number of references I quoted earlier.

 

Wopik, with respect, I profoundly disagree. MajorB has already set out most eloquently many Scriptures attesting to the Personhood of the HS, but let me throw an addition into the ring: in John's Gospel, the HS - hagia pneuma - is neuter yet Jesus consistently refers to the HS as 'He'.

To answer Abiyah - I do believe it is necessary to have the correct view of the Trinity - in order to have relationship with God, we need to know (not necessarily understand, but accept)some fundamentals about the Being with Whom we are in relationship. An analogy: if you were trying to define an elephant, you would not need to give a detailed anatomical and zoological description, but you would need to describe what it basically looked like (trunk, big ears, built like a juggernaut etc) - it would be incorrect to describe a giraffe (long neck and legs, yellow and brown patterned fur etc) and say it was an elephant - it would still be a giraffe no matter how much you insisted it was an elephant. Similarly with describing God as One Person, not Three - you might as well tryand call Him Allah, as far as I'm concerned - it ain't the God I worship.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Abiyah,

Comprehending the Godhead and fully understanding it are two different things. There are certain things that we do need to know to be saved and this is one of them.

They testify that the Father "manifested" himself as the Son, not that he actually "sent" His Son.

To not fully understand what the Word says is one thing, to deny it in favor of a "pet" doctrine is another.

The UPC Church teaches salvation by works, an anti-trinitarian god, places an unscriptural emphasis on the Holy Spirit baptism, that you can lose your salvation if you do not remain holy, and believes all other sects of christianity that do not believe their method of salvation are going to hell. They have no problem stating emphatically that I am going to hell because I have not shown them the evidence (tongues) of the Holy Spirit, and I have no problem pointing out that they are teaching another gospel, not the one presented in the Bible.

~Lorelei

 

wopik asked:

Answer:

MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

Answer:

MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." </font>[/QUOTE]Amen!

Try this one on for size

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there AM I in the midst of them.

(said by Jesus while still in flesh!)

How about These--

Deu 4:39 "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else."

1 Ki 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"

Psa 139:7-10 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."

Jer 23:23-24 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."

Mat 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"

Acts 17:27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

 

Matt Black ---
the HS - hagia pneuma - is neuter yet Jesus consistently refers to the HS as 'He'.

Fine, then 'He' is the father of Jesus:
"...she (Mary) was found with child of the Holy Spirit" (Matt.1:18)

"...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20).