Pardon Of Sin And Obedience

[tyndale1946]

I am now reading The Cause Of God and Truth by John Gill and found this quote from Gill very interesting... From page 62

4. Pardon of sin is never ascribed to any condition performed by
men, but to the free grace of God, streaming through the blood of
Christ; which was shed to obtain it, and in whose gift it is, being
exalted to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance unto
Israel, and forgiveness of sins (Isa. 43:24, 25); and which is often
given to persons without any conditions previously qualifying them
for it.

5. Obedience is not the condition of pardon, though a declaration
of pardon is an excellent motive to induce to obedience;
evangelical obedience springs from, and is influenced by,
discoveries of pardon, but is neither the cause nor condition of it.

Isaiah 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Your thoughts... Brother Glen

 

[BobRyan]

What does Romans 2 say about that?

1 Cor 6?

Matthew 7?

Matthew 18?

Romans 11?

James 2?

Lots of things to look at.

============================= starts with Romans 2

when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[tyndale1946]

What does Romans 2 say about that?

1 Cor 6?

Matthew 7?

Matthew 18?

Romans 11?

James 2?

Lots of things to look at.

============================= starts with Romans 2

when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

So what you are really saying is when God truly pardons a man, he is not truly pardon as God says he is... His obedience is based on weather he is pardoned or not?... Blessing and curses are based upon obedience not Salvation... You are right there are a lot of things to consider but to me this will suffice... Brother Glen

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is NO WAY anyone on this board can measure up to the obedience of Jesus Christ!

 

[BobRyan]

So what you are really saying is when God truly pardons a man, he is not truly pardon as God says he is... His obedience is based on weather he is pardoned or not?... Blessing and curses are based upon obedience not Salvation... You are right there are a lot of things to consider but to me this will suffice... Brother Glen

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is NO WAY anyone on this board can measure up to the obedience of Jesus Christ!

As for your last statement -- Obviously there is not a single one of the saints that can claim to have been "without sin" or to have measured up in any way to the perfection of Christ. "All have sinned" Rom 3:23.

Sorry for being late on this -

==============================================================

What does Romans 2 say about that?

1 Cor 6?

Matthew 7?

Matthew 18?

Romans 11?

James 2?

Lots of things to look at.

============================= starts with Romans 2

when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

===================================

we know this -

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[BobRyan]

So what you are really saying is when God truly pardons a man, he is not truly pardon as God says he is

Is that a reference to my statement that Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 applies to this topic (And Paul's teaching in Romans 11) ?

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[glad4mercy]

Is that a reference to my statement that Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 applies to this topic (And Paul's teaching in Romans 11) ?

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

The forgiveness one is the one I was thinking of. Undeniable.

 

[kyredneck]

5. Obedience is not the condition of pardon, though a declaration
of pardon is an excellent motive to induce to obedience;

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Ro 2

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: Ro 8

2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; My steps had well nigh slipped.
3 For I was envious at the arrogant, When I saw the prosperity of the wicked. .......
21 For my soul was grieved, And I was pricked in my heart:
22 So brutish was I, and ignorant; I was as a beast before thee.
23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: Thou hast holden my right hand.
24 Thou wilt guide me with thy counsel, And afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth; But God is the strength of my heart and my portion for ever.
27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: Thou hast destroyed all them that play the harlot, departing from thee.
28 But it is good for me to draw near unto God: I have made the Lord Jehovah my refuge, That I may tell of all thy works. Ps 73

 

[kyredneck]

43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 6

7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds"7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am now reading The Cause Of God and Truth by John Gill and found this quote from Gill very interesting... From page 62

4. Pardon of sin is never ascribed to any condition performed by
men, but to the free grace of God, streaming through the blood of
Christ; which was shed to obtain it, and in whose gift it is, being
exalted to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance unto
Israel, and forgiveness of sins (Isa. 43:24, 25); and which is often
given to persons without any conditions previously qualifying them
for it.

5. Obedience is not the condition of pardon, though a declaration
of pardon is an excellent motive to induce to obedience;
evangelical obedience springs from, and is influenced by,
discoveries of pardon, but is neither the cause nor condition of it.

Isaiah 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Your thoughts... Brother Glen

In my heart I know I am saved thru Gods grace, however I am penitent, but in the morning and evening I still say to him, Oh my God I am so sorry for having offended you .. please forgive me.

 

[tyndale1946]

In my heart I know I am saved thru Gods grace, however I am penitent, but in the morning and evening I still say to him, Oh my God I am so sorry for having offended you .. please forgive me.

Amen!... Reminds me of King David... A man after Gods own heart said this... Brother Glen

Psalms 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

John Gill btw is one of my heroes