Partial Preterism and Futurism Continued

[robycop3]

Calling Jesus the antichrist is the most blasphemous. Daniel 9 is about the Messiah, nowhere is the antichrist mentioned. The prince who was to come was Titus and it was his people, his troops, that destroyed the temple against his orders, Fulfilled litrerally and to the letter. Have you ever noticed that the temple was destroyed and the person who did it was a prince of the Romans. Don't preach to us about literal fulfillments when you play fast and loose with Daniel's prophecy.

OH, HOW GOOFY!

Please read the Daniel passages closely.

Daniel 9:26“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Notice it sez "THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME"! This is AFTER Messiah is "cut off". That prince didn't come before Messiah. So, your accusation of blasphemy against me is FALSE, and shows your ignorance. I expect an apology.

Yes, the destruction of J & the temple were fulfilled to the letter, but the "abomination of desolation" didn't occur then. And Titus was not then a "prince", but merely the general of that Roman army. Nowhere does any account say Titus entered the temple & declared himself to be God.

And the antichrist won't recognize the real God, nor anything else that's worshipped. It's known that titus worshipped the usual Roman pantheon of gods/goddesses thruout his life.

And Titus was never accompanied by any false prophet, miracle-worker or otherwise, nor any other deputy at all. Nor did he overthrow three other rulers to become Caesar after his father's death. He immediately succeeded vespasian after the latter's death.

And Titus died of a fever at age 41 in fronta many witnesses. He was NOT cast alive into the lake of fire!

So, Titus falls far-short of being the beast/antichrist. Your hooey is refuted.

 

[David Kent]

Same verse, CURRENT English:“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Of course.

The prophecy was about Jerusalem.

Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Jesus was speaking to Christians in Judea, it was to those and other Christians who were to flee to the Mountains..

(let him that readeth understand,) How was he reader to understand who would place the A of D? Daniel told them. Daniel 11.

So basically everyone was preterist until the reformation, then A historical approach came and the Catholic church Made up futurism, but just wrote down the widely held view of the early church preterism. Robycop3 History is a wonderful thing isn't it?

No they were not preterist.

Nearly all of the early church writers taught that antichrist would follow after the Roman empire fell. Tertullian for instance said "we pray for Caesar, because we know what terrors will befall the Earth when he is removed. Antichrist will come and reign for 3½ years then will be the end of all things."

They were historicist. They mostly believed that the temple in Revelation was the church.

 

[David Kent]

So, Titus falls far-short of being the beast/antichrist. Your hooey is refuted.

Titus was not antichrist. Dan 9 doesn't mention antichrist. That is a another futurist misquote of scripture. As I said The prophecy is about Jesus, not the antichrist.

 

[robycop3]

Again, there's only ONE thing that can sustain preterism - ***PROOF*** that the eschatological events they SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened.

We all know Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed, to the letter of Jesus'(and Daniel's) prophecy. But there's NOT been

any beast/antichrist world ruler with a miracle-working false prophet deputy

any worldwide great trib, worst in history

any mark of the beast

any abomination of desolation

and certainly, any glorious return of Jesus, SEEN BY ALL.

 

[robycop3]

Of course.

The prophecy was about Jerusalem.

Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Jesus was speaking to Christians in Judea, it was to those and other Christians who were to flee to the Mountains..

(let him that readeth understand,) How was he reader to understand who would place the A of D? Daniel told them. Daniel 11.



No they were not preterist.

Nearly all of the early church writers taught that antichrist would follow after the Roman empire fell. Tertullian for instance said "we pray for Caesar, because we know what terrors will befall the Earth when he is removed. Antichrist will come and reign for 3½ years then will be the end of all things."

They were historicist. They mostly believed that the temple in Revelation was the church.

However, there were some 8 months between the Roman sieges of J. The people had plenty of time to flee. So, jesus' words about an urgent flight from J must be about a future invasion, such as the Gog-Magog war.

 

[prophecy70]

Again, there's only ONE thing that can sustain preterism - ***PROOF*** that the eschatological events they SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened.

We all know Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed, to the letter of Jesus'(and Daniel's) prophecy. But there's NOT been

any beast/antichrist world ruler with a miracle-working false prophet deputy

any worldwide great trib, worst in history

any mark of the beast

any abomination of desolation

and certainly, any glorious return of Jesus, SEEN BY ALL.

Please answer my questions first to see how literal you actually believe prophecy.

 

[prophecy70]

Titus was not antichrist. Dan 9 doesn't mention antichrist. That is a another futurist misquote of scripture. As I said The prophecy is about Jesus, not the antichrist.

Everything that denies God is Antichrist

 

[prophecy70]

Of course.

The prophecy was about Jerusalem.

Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Jesus was speaking to Christians in Judea, it was to those and other Christians who were to flee to the Mountains..

(let him that readeth understand,) How was he reader to understand who would place the A of D? Daniel told them. Daniel 11.



No they were not preterist.

Nearly all of the early church writers taught that antichrist would follow after the Roman empire fell. Tertullian for instance said "we pray for Caesar, because we know what terrors will befall the Earth when he is removed. Antichrist will come and reign for 3½ years then will be the end of all things."

They were historicist. They mostly believed that the temple in Revelation was the church.

Interesting can you provide some information on that? I've seen preterists in the second century. No futurist though. Not till 1800

 

[prophecy70]

Yes, the destruction of J & the temple were fulfilled to the letter, but the "abomination of desolation" didn't occur then. And Titus was not then a "prince", but merely the general of that Roman army. Nowhere does any account say Titus entered the temple & declared himself to be God.

Was John the Baptist Elijah? As prophesied?

 

[prophecy70]

Revelation 1:20 states that "The sevenstars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

This already shows Revelations as not literal so why is the mark of the beast and when it rained rocks and rivers drying up literal?

 

[prophecy70]

Notice it sez "THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME"! This is AFTER Messiah is "cut off". That prince didn't come before Messiah. So, your accusation of blasphemy against me is FALSE, and shows your ignorance. I expect an apology.

Jesus died 30-32 ad
Temple destroyed 70 ad.
Sounds like after to me.

You still have yet to tell me also why the Bible literally since you want to over use that word....why the Earth remains forever.

 

[prophecy70]

However, there were some 8 months between the Roman sieges of J. The people had plenty of time to flee. So, jesus' words about an urgent flight from J must be about a future invasion, such as the Gog-Magog war.

The one in ezekiel or Revelations?

 

[David Kent]

Same verse, CURRENT English:“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Of course.

The prophecy was about Jerusalem.

Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Jesus was speaking to Christians in Judea, it was to those and other Christians who were to flee to the Mountains..

(let him that readeth understand,) How was he reader to understand who would place the A of D? Daniel told them.

Daniel 11.

 

[David Kent]

However, there were some 8 months between the Roman sieges of J. The people had plenty of time to flee. So, jesus' words about an urgent flight from J must be about a future invasion, such as the Gog-Magog war.

You are so ignorant of the situation of the Christians and events at the time. Cestius surronded Jeusalem in AD66. Christians fled the city then. That is because Jesus said, When you see Jerusalem Surrounded by armies. When they saw the standards and the Eagle of the Romans, they knew that was the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel. At the fall of Jerusalem those same troops sacrificed to their standards in the holy place. The first siege was the only safe time to flee, as after that there was a fierce civil war going on in the city with three sides fighting and murdering those of the other side. They also murdered any who tried to escape. There were many false prophets urging them not to surrender as God would protect them in the end. Josephus describes how the dreadful howls of those being killed and those mourning went on day and night. I am not sure about 8 months between Vespasian and Titus, as I remember the account, The Roman legions in Judah were the first to proclaim Vespasian as emperor, he then left Titus in charge of the siege and went to Rome to claim the title. There was a time when Titus gave his troops three days of to collect their pay, and to enable any Jews to leave the city,
Either way, it was far too late for any Christians to leave the city without a hair of their head being harmed.

 

[David Kent]

Can anyone tell me where Daniel 9 the bible mentions the word antichrist?
Or where it says that someone made a covenant with the Jews?
Or that it says anyone broke the covenant?
Or where Jesus offered the Kingdom to the Jews?
Or where they rejected such an offer?
Thanks

 

[David Kent]

Who was the Man of Sin, and when did Jesus appear to destroy Him? Hint, at the same time of His second coming, yet to happen!

From the Waldedenses in about 1200, the church recognised the papacy as the man of sin, until the Jesuits in the 16th century came up with two alternatives,
1st He was in the past, Nero, Alcazar and
2nd He was someone who might turn up in the future. Ribera, Belarmine, Walpole and others.

The man of sin was the successor to the Emperors and still sits in their capital, Rome.

Who has gained since futurism was introduced to the non Catholic church? Why thr Roman church of course. The gospel has not gained.

 

[Covenanter]

Thanks for your informative contributions, David.

I think we can agree that OT prophecy concerns -
obedience to the Old Covenant;
the people who the prophet was addressing;
the future of Israel/Judah with respect to the captivity & the return, & rebuilding of the temple;
AND
the coming of Messiah & the fulfilment of covenant prophecies & promises.

NT prophecy concerns -
the death & resurrection & kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ;
the New Covenant, & NC worship;
the growth of the church through the world, beginning with the Jews;
the judgment on Jerusalem & the Jews who rejected their Messiah;
The spread of the Gospel against persecution;
the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ for resurrection, judgement, & to establish the NH&NE.

NO future millennium, etc.

 

[prophecy70]

David,
Quintus Florens Tertullian (145- 220)
EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 – 340)
St. Athanasius (295- 373)
Epiphanes (315-403)
EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA -(A.D. 312)

They all wrote about preterism before the 16th century..... Im not debating you Im questioning it. I was a full fledged futurist until like last year. So please give me a break in my studies of this. Thank you.

 

[Covenanter]

David,
Quintus Florens Tertullian (145- 220)
EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 – 340)
St. Athanasius (295- 373)
Epiphanes (315-403)
EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA -(A.D. 312)

They all wrote about preterism before the 16th century..... Im not debating you Im questioning it. I was a full fledged futurist until like last year. So please give me a break in my studies of this. Thank you.

What David is saying is that when the Reformers attacked the Papacy as antichristian, & the Pope as antichrist - ex-officio - RCs responded with the partial-preterist prophetic system that showed that the Olivet prophecy related to the Jews & Jewish priesthood.

Before then the RCs had little interest in the teaching of Scripture - they had the teaching of the church. The Reformation forced them to take notice & to attempt to justify their teaching from Scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think somebody said you wouldn't find futurists before 1800.
Is that correct? as I can't find the post.

Jesus and Apostles all were!
And many of the ECF were, as the non future view really got established under Augustine and His spiritual way to view prophecy!