Partial Preterism and Futurism Continued

[Yeshua1]

That is correct, same with the complete idea of preterism, Im more of an idealist in revelations. I do believe much of it can be said about AD 70 but i also think it can be read in any date in any time. Most historical protestants thought the beast was the pope. I think each generation has its own beast. MANY DECEIVERS as the bible says.

I think the catholic church has a better understanding of the end times then protestants unfortunately.
Although they believe they are Gods kingdom on earth in the one true church, which i don't believe is right. They don't believe in millennialism which I do not either literally. Most protestant reformers were amillennialists Historicalists (believing revelations was from birth of christ to end of world) until the divide grew them farther apart in beliefs. Futurism as we know today didn't start until the 1800s With Darby.

Many Ech though were pre mils, not Dsipy, but more like Historical premils, so the futuristic viewpoint was the prominent one until Augustine views on spiritualizing prophecy took over!

 

[Yeshua1]

Please show me where it connects all of that.

The scriptures state that the man of Sin will be destroyed at the appearance of Jesus, and that has yet to occur!

 

[Yeshua1]

From the Waldedenses in about 1200, the church recognised the papacy as the man of sin, until the Jesuits in the 16th century came up with two alternatives,
1st He was in the past, Nero, Alcazar and
2nd He was someone who might turn up in the future. Ribera, Belarmine, Walpole and others.

The man of sin was the successor to the Emperors and still sits in their capital, Rome.

Who has gained since futurism was introduced to the non Catholic church? Why thr Roman church of course. The gospel has not gained.

The Papacy may or may not be the Antichrist, but your viewpoint depends on it being so!

 

[David Kent]

Jesus and Apostles all were!

Prove it from the scriptures.

And many of the ECF were, as the non future view really got established under Augustine and His spiritual way to view prophecy!

The were only futurists as far s the prophecies were future to them. Many of those prophecies have been fulfilled since then. Most of them taught that the temple in the book of Revelation referred to the church, no doubt ecause Paul said "You are the temple of God", all the following verses refer to the church.

• 1 Corinthians 3:16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1 Corinthians 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2 Corinthians 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
• Revelation 11:1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

[David Kent]

The scriptures state that the man of Sin will be destroyed at the appearance of Jesus, and that has yet to occur!

The papacy will be destroyed when He does return.

 

[prophecy70]

The scriptures state that the man of Sin will be destroyed at the appearance of Jesus, and that has yet to occur!

Scripture please

 

[prophecy70]

Many Ech though were pre mils, not Dsipy, but more like Historical premils, so the futuristic viewpoint was the prominent one until Augustine views on spiritualizing prophecy took over!

Find one early church writing of an endtime antichrist.

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 9:26“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Notice it sez "THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME"! This is AFTER Messiah is "cut off". That prince didn't come before Messiah. So, your accusation of blasphemy against me is FALSE, and shows your ignorance. I expect an apology.

No apology, the prophecy is about Messiah, the prince. As I have repeatedly said angel said,the propheccy was about 6 things that were determined in the 70 weeks,

• 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

All these were fulfilled in Jesus and his ministry, The People Prince who was to come was a result of the Jews filling up the measure of their fathers, Matt 23, by murdering their king.

Titus was a prince in bible terms His father was emperor and Josephus constantly refers to Titus as Caesar which at that time was a title of the next in line, a bit like our Prince of Wales, or the French, Dauphin.

Actually, the prince isn't said to do anything. It his people that are the subject of the verse which was fulfilled literally to the letter. Jesus was the one who confirmed the covenant. Romans 15:8

 

[prophecy70]

Actually, the prince isn't said to do anything. It his people that are the subject of the verse which was fulfilled literally to the letter. Jesus was the one who confirmed the covenant. Romans 15:8

Daniel 11:31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation.

is that saying the same thing? Who puts an end to sacrifice? Antiochus or Jesus?

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 11:31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation.

is that saying the same thing? Who puts an end to sacrifice? Antiochus or Jesus?

No. They are not saying the same thing, Jesus put an end to the sacrifice, by his death on the cross from that time the sacrifice was not valid.

• Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The fact that it continued for some years is beside the point, it was of no value. If you read the account of Josephus on the last siege of Jerusalem of which he was an eye witness, you will read of many prophecies being fulfilled, literally.
Antiochus caused the sacrifice to fail for a 3 years, Jesus caused it to fail permanently.
In the Roman war, which was God's judgement on the unrepentant Jews the records house which held the genealogies was burnt down and all the genealogies were destroyed and the sacrifice failed because there was no one who could prove that he was a priest.

• Ezra 2:62These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
• Ezra 8:1These are now the chief of their fathers, and this is the genealogy of them that went up with me from Babylon, in the reign of Artaxerxes the king.
• Ezra 8:3Of the sons of Shechaniah, of the sons of Pharosh; Zechariah: and with him were reckoned by genealogy of the males an hundred and fifty.
• Nehemiah 7:5And my God put into mine heart to gather together the nobles, and the rulers, and the people, that they might be reckoned by genealogy. And I found a register of the genealogy of them which came up at the first, and found written therein,
• Nehemiah 7:64These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
All fulfilled in Christ

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Cyrus gave the order. and for the following seven weeks, 49 years, the temple was built in troublous times.Nothing is said about what would happen during the next 62 weeks in this chapter but Daniel 11 fills it in.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off I (n the midst of the week,i.e.in the 70th week.,verse 27) but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Note: It was the people of the prince (the Roman troops) not the prince. Remember that it is the people not the prince who is the subject. Also note the last part of the verse is not included in the six points of verse 24, which are all to do with salvation.

27 And he, Messiah the Prince, shall confirm the covenant with many,The Jews for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Again the last part of this verse is not included in the 6 clauses of verse 24 but is a result of it and a fulfilment of the woes of Matt 23 and the prophecy of Deut 28. The city and temple were destroyed, the people were killed or sent into slavery, and many were deported to Egypt to work in mines. So many were made saves that the price of slaves crashed throughout the empire.

• Duet 28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

Read all of the curses in that chapter, many can be identified in the historical accounts. Indeed a tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Note on the people of the prince: While I prefer the above, I know that some teach that there is only one prince in that prophecy, Messiah the Prince and he was the one who led the troops, after all God said Nehemiah was his servant and Cyrus was His anointed.

So the seventy weeks, 7 weeks from Cyrus during which the temple was built in troublous times. 62 weeks from Darius (Artaxerxes) till the anointing of the Lamb of God at the time of John the Baptist, 3½ years to the crucifixion, and 3½ years during which the ministry was carried on by the disciples exclusively to the Jews, until Peter preached to Cornelius and his family. 70 weeks finished.

 

[prophecy70]

No. They are not saying the same thing, Jesus put an end to the sacrifice, by his death on the cross from that time the sacrifice was not valid.

• Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The fact that it continued for some years is beside the point, it was of no value. If you read the account of Josephus on the last siege of Jerusalem of which he was an eye witness, you will read of many prophecies being fulfilled, literally.
Antiochus caused the sacrifice to fail for a 3 years, Jesus caused it to fail permanently.
In the Roman war, which was God's judgement on the unrepentant Jews the records house which held the genealogies was burnt down and all the genealogies were destroyed and the sacrifice failed because there was no one who could prove that he was a priest.

• Ezra 2:62These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
• Ezra 8:1These are now the chief of their fathers, and this is the genealogy of them that went up with me from Babylon, in the reign of Artaxerxes the king.
• Ezra 8:3Of the sons of Shechaniah, of the sons of Pharosh; Zechariah: and with him were reckoned by genealogy of the males an hundred and fifty.
• Nehemiah 7:5And my God put into mine heart to gather together the nobles, and the rulers, and the people, that they might be reckoned by genealogy. And I found a register of the genealogy of them which came up at the first, and found written therein,
• Nehemiah 7:64These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
All fulfilled in Christ

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Cyrus gave the order. and for the following seven weeks, 49 years, the temple was built in troublous times.Nothing is said about what would happen during the next 62 weeks in this chapter but Daniel 11 fills it in.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off I (n the midst of the week,i.e.in the 70th week.,verse 27) but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Note: It was the people of the prince (the Roman troops) not the prince. Remember that it is the people not the prince who is the subject. Also note the last part of the verse is not included in the six points of verse 24, which are all to do with salvation.

27 And he, Messiah the Prince, shall confirm the covenant with many,The Jews for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Again the last part of this verse is not included in the 6 clauses of verse 24 but is a result of it and a fulfilment of the woes of Matt 23 and the prophecy of Deut 28. The city and temple were destroyed, the people were killed or sent into slavery, and many were deported to Egypt to work in mines. So many were made saves that the price of slaves crashed throughout the empire.

• Duet 28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

Read all of the curses in that chapter, many can be identified in the historical accounts. Indeed a tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Note on the people of the prince: While I prefer the above, I know that some teach that there is only one prince in that prophecy, Messiah the Prince and he was the one who led the troops, after all God said Nehemiah was his servant and Cyrus was His anointed.

So the seventy weeks, 7 weeks from Cyrus during which the temple was built in troublous times. 62 weeks from Darius (Artaxerxes) till the anointing of the Lamb of God at the time of John the Baptist, 3½ years to the crucifixion, and 3½ years during which the ministry was carried on by the disciples exclusively to the Jews, until Peter preached to Cornelius and his family. 70 weeks finished.

That has been the best clarification of this to me!! So honestly thank you.

Robycop3? Where are your explaintions?

 

[Yeshua1]

Prove it from the scriptures.



The were only futurists as far s the prophecies were future to them. Many of those prophecies have been fulfilled since then. Most of them taught that the temple in the book of Revelation referred to the church, no doubt ecause Paul said "You are the temple of God", all the following verses refer to the church.

• 1 Corinthians 3:16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1 Corinthians 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2 Corinthians 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
• Revelation 11:1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Actually, many of them taught that there was yet to come Second Coming, and that Jesus would set up and rule at that time!

 

[prophecy70]

Who did when? Sources please.

 

[prophecy70]

No apology, the prophecy is about Messiah, the prince. As I have repeatedly said angel said,the propheccy was about 6 things that were determined in the 70 weeks,

• 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

All these were fulfilled in Jesus and his ministry, The People Prince who was to come was a result of the Jews filling up the measure of their fathers, Matt 23, by murdering their king.

Titus was a prince in bible terms His father was emperor and Josephus constantly refers to Titus as Caesar which at that time was a title of the next in line, a bit like our Prince of Wales, or the French, Dauphin.

Actually, the prince isn't said to do anything. It his people that are the subject of the verse which was fulfilled literally to the letter. Jesus was the one who confirmed the covenant. Romans 15:8

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

exactly!!!! The people are the subject not the prince so the HE in verse 27 is still the Messiah.

 

[Yeshua1]

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

exactly!!!! The people are the subject not the prince so the HE in verse 27 is still the Messiah.

The last chapter of Daniel is still future though, correct?

 

[John of Japan]

Don't have much time to do these preterism debates nowadays--too many things to correct on the preterist side.

But you know (just a sec, while I place tongue firmly in cheek), the Bar Kochba revolt (130-136) works far better for the preterist than the AD 70 debate. If you take the Bar Kokhba revolt as the fulfillment (and "spiritual" 2nd coming of Christ), you can have your cake and eat it too: 96 as the date of Revelation, complete destruction of Jerusalem because of unimagined blasphemy, scattering of the people of Israel all over the world (forbidden to dwell in Palestine by the Romans), etc.

Too many problems with AD 70 for preterists. Try Bar Kokhba instead.

 

[prophecy70]

Don't have much time to do these preterism debates nowadays--too many things to correct on the preterist side.

But you know (just a sec, while I place tongue firmly in cheek), the Bar Kochba revolt (130-136) works far better for the preterist than the AD 70 debate. If you take Bar Kokhba revolt as the fulfillment (and "spiritual" 2nd coming of Christ), you can have your cake and eat it too: 96 as the date of Revelation, complete destruction of Jerusalem because of unimagined blasphemy, scattering of the people of Israel all over the world (forbidden to dwell in Palestine by the Romans), etc.

Too many problems with AD 70 for preterists. Try Bar Kokhba instead.

Revelations 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

130 ad seems a lot of waiting to those that pierced him.

 

[John of Japan]

Revelations 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

130 ad seems a lot of waiting to those that pierced him.

Yep. I'm still waiting after almost 2000 years. (But you know, even 40 years seems like a long time. ) Oh, and every eye saw Him in the clouds in AD 70, right? Any historical reference to that? Nope? Okay, I'll just keep waiting.

But check out that Bar Kokhba thing, okay? Works well for preterism.

 

[prophecy70]

Yep. I'm still waiting after almost 2000 years. (But you know, even 40 years seems like a long time. ) Oh, and every eye saw Him in the clouds in AD 70, right? Any historical reference to that? Nope? Okay, I'll just keep waiting.

But check out that Bar Kokhba thing, okay? Works well for preterism.

Every eye did see him come in AD 70. Every eye in Jerusalem.

Colossians 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The same way the gospel made it around the whole world here

 

[prophecy70]

The last chapter of Daniel is still future though, correct?

No I do not think so.


Daniel
12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand