Partial Preterist Viewpoint on Revelation

[Brother Bob]

How else do you interpret Ezek 47:1-10 (Well, actually, Ezek 40-48)??? Micah 4:1-5???? Zech 14:8-11, 16-21??? Isa 60-66??? These are all literal people, places, and things. How is it that you can make "Engedi" in Ezek 47:10 symbolic/allegorical of anything, for instance?? How do you claim that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob don't receive the "land" as an eternal inheritance??

skypair

I guess thats where we have trouble agreeing. You see, we consider "New Jerusalem" as the Church, part of her is in Heaven (souls of the dead believers), and part of her is still here. We do not believe "New Jerusalem" is a city liken unto a city of men, where you need intrastructure, such as sewage, water, electricity, taxes, etc, you name it. We believe "New Jerusalem" is a city not made with hands, which has twelve foundations and the names of the Twelve Apostles, twelve gates and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, God and the Lamb is the light of that city (not the sun and the moon), God and the Lamb are the temple of that city, not the temple of Solomon, it has a street of God, with mansons and we as believers make up that city as pillars, and we have the name of that city "New Jerusalem".

While you are looking for that city over in natural Jerusalem, we believe its in building today. God adds to the church daily, such as should be saved, makes them a pillar in that city. We believe when you see that city coming down from God out of Heaven, its the souls of the believing dead, coming for their bodies. We are worlds apart and I see no way we will ever come together. I do not want the Messiah that the unbelieving Jews want. I have the Messiah, that really has already come to them and us, and I am not looking for another one. The city I am talking about has twelve gates that have the twelve tribes of Israel, so I suspect that Abraham, Issac and Jacob is a part also. I believe that to be the promised land, unfortunantely the unbelievers will not be there, and that includes a large part of Israel, that is not of the remnant and elect.

I am not looking to live on this earth anymore after I die. I am looking to be resurrected with a spiritual body that can't die and with my soul that came back for me. I believe I will meet the Lord in the air and He will take me to the manson He promised me. I believe it to be where God is. You and Israel can have the earth, I do not want it. Peace,

BBob,

 

[skypair]

The “poison” of CH Spurgeon:

Commenting on Matthew 24:15-21

"This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains."

Yes, I accounted for that in Luke 21 at 7:15 this morning. It was NOT the AoD but, nonetheless, the church was "alerted" regarding what would come of Jerusalem.

The “poison’ of John Gill:

Mat 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment:

I don't see any fulfillments here but the seige of Jerusalem. MT 24:29 as it regards Mt 24:21 has not yet appeared.

Perhaps the “poison” of FF Bruce is to your liking:

"When the temple area was taken by the Romans, and the sanctuary itself was still burning, the soldiers brought their legionary standards into the sacred precincts, set them up opposite the eastern gate, and offered sacrifice to them there, acclaiming Titus as imperator (victorious commander) as they did so. The Roman custom of offering sacrifice to their standards had already been commented on by a Jewish writer as a symptom of their pagan arrogance, but the offering of such sacrifice in the temple court was the supreme insult to the God of Israel. This action, following as it did the cessation of the daily sacrifice three weeks earlier, must have sensed to many Jews, as it evidently did to Josephus, a new and final fulfillment of Daniel's vision of a time when the continual burnt offering would be taken away and the abomination of desolation set up" (Israel and the Nations, p. 226)

Sorry, but a sacrifice in the outer/temple court does NOT suffice to fulfill the AoD that Jesus saw in the "holy place," Mt 24:15. And furthermore, Josephus was NOT a believer so he is commenting on things he only has a fleshly familiarity with. BTW, they destroyed the "holy place" before ANY image was set up there!

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The text doesn’t say the destruction would occur within the 70th week.

Huh?? Not in your interpretation maybe. But look -- there is a HUGE gap between "the prince that shall come" and "the end of the war." How long do YOU think that this "war" between Rome and Israel has been going on???

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

So please explain using your “literal” hermeneutic how a “highway was made straight in the desert” and how “every valley” was exalted and “every mountain and hill” was made low when John the Baptist arrived on the scene.

Isa 11:16, 19:23, 35:8. It's talking about the days of Elijah when he comes to "restore all things," Mt 17:11, Mal 4:5. John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, if you can accept it, Mt 11:14. It's interesting that you quote that and get the spiritual and the literal just backwards! :laugh: John the Baptist ushered in the SPIRITUAL kingdom but Elijah is coming in the tribulation (Rev 11:4) to usher in the LITERAL, PHYSICAL kingdom!! :laugh:

In fact since you have trouble comprehending how the Bible uses language we should re-read the entire Bible using your literal hermeneutic. Let’s start here:

Exo 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Have you ever read the Old Testament and the way the Prophets used metaphors and figurative language to express literal events? Seems you take everything literal EXCEPT the simple concepts as “soon”, “near” and “at hand”. Why is that?

[/quote] Have you read that the grapes clusters were so huge it took 2 men to carry them? And that the 12 "spies" said that, indeed, the land did flow with "milk and honey," whatever that meant in their vernacular?

Believe me, how "the Bible uses language" is NOT a problem for me!

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have than one by Mr. Hanegraaf but haven't gotten round to reading it.

You really should...... its a great read. :thumbs:

 

[Grasshopper]

I don't see any fulfillments here but the seige of Jerusalem. MT 24:29 as it regards Mt 24:21 has not yet appeared.

More “poison” from Spurgeon and Boettner:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Spurgeon:
"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Loraine Boettner
"Premillennialists of both schools relate the prophecy concerning a Great Tribulation to a future period, holding that it occurs at the very end of the age, and are so blind to the fact that it already has been fulfilled literally in the year 70 A.D.
One reason that it is so difficult for some people to realize that the Great Tribulation had its fulfillment in the siege and fall of Jerusalem is what a landmark in history the break-up and abolition of the Old Testament economy really was. For a period of 1500 years God had worked with and through the Jewish people exclusively in matters pertaining to salvation." (The Millennium, rev. ed., Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, [1957] 1984, p.201)

You can’t slice and dice Luke 21 and Matthew 24 to make it fit your pet doctrine. It speaks of the same event.

Isa 11:16, 19:23, 35:8. It's talking about the days of Elijah when he comes to "restore all things," Mt 17:11, Mal 4:5. John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, if you can accept it, Mt 11:14. It's interesting that you quote that and get the spiritual and the literal just backwards! John the Baptist ushered in the SPIRITUAL kingdom but Elijah is coming in the tribulation (Rev 11:4) to usher in the LITERAL, PHYSICAL kingdom!!

Not sure what the passages in Isa. you listed have to do with Isa. 40:3-4. Is Is. 40:3-4 not speaking of John the Baptist?

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Jesus was quite clear who Elijah was:

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I don’t read anything about a “type” in my Bible? Where is that “literally” found??
The disciples finally figured it out (vs. 17), yet dispies continue to miss it.

More evidence it was John:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Speaking of the birth of John:

Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Have you read that the grapes clusters were so huge it took 2 men to carry them? And that the 12 "spies" said that, indeed, the land did flow with "milk and honey," whatever that meant in their vernacular?

Bingo!!!!! We finally have a winner. “Whatever it meant in their vernacular” is the key, not your 21st century, western, English speaking literalism.

Now take your new found knowledge and apply it to the Olivet Discourse. What did this type of language mean in the Hebrew vernacular?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Let’s go to the OT and find out:

Here is the description of the fall of Babylon by the invading Medes:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

See how easy it is without the lens of Hal Lindsey?

You didn’t answer my question of your literal interpretation of words like, “soon”, “near”, and “at hand”.

 

[EdSutton]

Does OT actually ever say, that the "kingdom" is natural???

Does OT ever say that the "kingdom" is spiritual???
Does OT ever say that the "kingdom" is "literal"???
Does OT ever say that the "kingdom" is physical???

I do not believe it ever says any of these three four things, specifically.

The words "physical" and "literal" are never found anywhere in the KJV, to my knowldedge; Neither are the words "natural" and "kingdom", or those of "spiritual" and "kingdom" ever found together in any verse in the KJV, as far as I can determine.

But there are decided and specific characteristics of the (future) Kingdom found many places in the OT.

Some would seem at any ordinary reading to refer to something we would normally characterize as "physical" or "natural", e.g. (Dan. 7:14; Ob. 21) I see the same principle in the NT.

Some would seem at any ordinary reading to refer to something we would normally characterize as "spiritual", e.g. (Ps. 22:8; 45:6) I see the same principle in the NT.

I also see that I definitely need to get back to bed and get some more sleep.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Does OT ever say that the "kingdom" is spiritual???
Does OT ever say that the "kingdom" is "literal"???
Does OT ever say that the "kingdom" is physical???

I do not believe it ever says any of these three four things, specifically.

The words "physical" and "literal" are never found anywhere in the KJV, to my knowldedge; Neither are the words "natural" and "kingdom", or those of "spiritual" and "kingdom" ever found together in any verse in the KJV, as far as I can determine.

But there are decided and specific characteristics of the (future) Kingdom found many places in the OT.

Some would seem at any ordinary reading to refer to something we would normally characterize as "physical" or "natural", e.g. (Dan. 7:14; Ob. 21) I see the same principle in the NT.

Some would seem at any ordinary reading to refer to something we would normally characterize as "spiritual", e.g. (Ps. 22:8; 45:6) I see the same principle in the NT.

I also see that I definitely need to get back to bed and get some more sleep.

Ed

Thanks Ed, have a good night.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Let's just take one aspect of that war that could have been "such as never was." Did we see Zech 14:12 -- "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth"? No. And we wouldn't see such a thing until 1876 years later in Hiroshima! But I'm guessing there is a way to allegorize those quite literal, horrendous, and prophetic words so that they will fit into someone's description of the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Spurgeon:
"... Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified."

"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since.

Spurgeon didn't have the "luxury" of being able to compare Jerusalem 70 AD with the Holocaust, did he. And yet there is still worse in the future just prior to Messiah's return.

Loraine Boettner
"Premillennialists of both schools relate the prophecy concerning a Great Tribulation to a future period, holding that it occurs at the very end of the age, and are so blind to the fact that it already has been fulfilled literally in the year 70 A.D.

He's just another one, like Hymenaeus, to be turned over to Satan that he learn not to blaspheme by saying that the resurrection has already come. (1Tim 1:20, 2Tim 2:17-18)

You can’t slice and dice Luke 21 and Matthew 24 to make it fit your pet doctrine. It speaks of the same event.

O, believe me -- it wasn't me who did it! :laugh: I was happy with what I knew about it. I was merely trying to lend a little credence to what you were saying regarding the church.

Not sure what the passages in Isa. you listed have to do with Isa. 40:3-4. Is Is. 40:3-4 not speaking of John the Baptist?

The Isa 40:3-4 mentions a "highway" which I then tried to show will be literal in the end times per those verses.

Plus in the verses you mention, Jesus tells us the "Elijah shall TRULY come first" but as regarding John the Baptist being Elijah, He says "If you can receive it." IOW, John the Baptist did come before Christ but neither he nor Jesus could "restore all things." However, they did restore the spiritual foundations of the yet to come earthly kingdom, right?

Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Right here you are starting to get the sense of it. The "groundwork" of John's ministry was spiritual preparation of Israel for Messiah. When "true Elijah" comes, he will begin to prepare the literal, physical kingdom. How? Returning the people to temple worship, sacrifices (which is why the AoD will be particularly onerous to Israel). I believe that the nation will be the size it was under David -- that kingdom will be restored till midtrib when Elijah and Moses will be slain and raptured.

Now take your new found knowledge and apply it to the Olivet Discourse. What did this type of language mean in the Hebrew vernacular?

Thanks for the lesson -- but Isa 13:10 is another description, as Mt 24:29 is, of Rev 16:10-21. Shall we just confirm this together?

13:11 -- "...I will punish the WORLD for their evil..." The Rev 16 plagues are known as "the wrath of God" and they are upon the whole world.

13:12 -- "I will shake the heavens and the earth shall move out of its place." The capture of Babylon by the Medes was almost bloodless with no accompanying earthquake reported or needed.

13:19 -- "And Babylon ... shall be as Sodom and Gommorah" Again, the Medes did not obliterate Babylon but we see in Rev 16:18-20 and 18:21 that the last Babylon will be destroyed as Sodom.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

You didn’t answer my question of your literal interpretation of words like, “soon”, “near”, and “at hand”.

Sorry, I'll have to look up that post. :type:

skypair

 

[skypair]

GH -- I guess I missed this entire post. Perhaps the "soon," "like" and whatever are in this one. :laugh:

Luk 21:21

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

So please explain how verses 21-22 are to be separated from the following verses...

Well, first it is separate from the rest of the discourse in Luke 17, right? Second, Luke's gospel was written from the Gentile perspective of Jesus' life and teachings -- Matt's was the Jewish perspective (Mark was Roman and John from the believer's perspective -- cf. Rev 4:7). Third, that seems to have been how the church leaders inpterpretted them because they did flee in time.

The “God backing off” view is held by dispies. It’s called the Church Age or “parenthesis.” Preterism teaches God actually kept His promises.

Well, truth be told, we both believe God "backed off" -- dispies only temporarily, preterists for good.

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Interesting you should choose this passage. Do you know what the "gospel of the kingdom" was?? It might shock you to realize that it was the OT gospel of Messiah coming into His earthly kingdom and forgiving the iniquities of believing Israel. Jesus had fulfilled the "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..." Isa 9:6 and was offering the rest "...and the government shall be upon His shoulders, and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God..." This would have been the gospel of which Jesus said to the 70, "You will not have visited all the cities of Israel before this gospel is fulfilled in your sight." And they hadn't by Palm Sunday when He rode into Jerusalem to the acclaim of people that He was King! But as we know, He couldn't set up His literal, earthly kingdom at that time, could He?

I think God said He laughs at such thoughts:

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Psa 2:1-4 is a prophecy regarding Armageddon.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

How is it that the kingdom you speak of was "left to other people," the Gentiles?? How do you see that Christ's kingdom "break ... and consume all these nations?"

Too much John Hagee in your diet.

OK -- that's a good one! :laugh:

Just what is it about Christ’s atonement that dispies find lacking?

Your MISunderstanding of the purposes for them in the MK. They will be "remembrances" and worship -- just like our communion -- just like the "new song" or "song of Moses" in heaven, Rev 5:9 -- or like the celebration of the Passover. Do you get the picture?

And try to put these all into the context of Ezek 40-48. Israel lives in ALL the land promised to Abraham and it is divided to the tribes. There is the "living water" that flows from the throne to give life to even the Dead Sea. The temple described here is 1.5 miles square -- enormous! The priesthood will be after Zadok, not Aaron. Ezek 43:7 and Zech 14:9 tell us that God will live and reign phyically among them. NONE of this has come to pass yet, GH.

So tell us, just where is the blood of Christ during this wonderful time you speak of?

Still upon mercy seat in heaven. God sees that blood -- according to Paul, the peoples' consciences will be clear in that regard. In fact, we see in Heb 9:13 that "the blood of bulls... sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh" -- that is, for conducting religious affirmation/profession.

Way too much “left behind” for my liking. Let me guess, the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Bible is sitting right next to you. Correct?

Would it matter to you "O quoter of Reform theologians," if I did? :laugh:

Actually, you should be able to tell by my post that I get along quite well with the Bible alone, now.

I still don't find those "soon" and "like" questions.

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

I still don't find those "soon" and "like" questions.

Post #17.

Ed

 

[Grasshopper]

Let's just take one aspect of that war that could have been "such as never was." Did we see Zech 14:12 -- "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth"? No. And we wouldn't see such a thing until 1876 years later in Hiroshima! But I'm guessing there is a way to allegorize those quite literal, horrendous, and prophetic words so that they will fit into someone's description of the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Perhaps you can explain then how the following verses are possible if their flesh, eyes, and tongues have dissolved:

Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Are not hands considered flesh? For someone who insists on literalism you sure have a lot of contradictions.

Spurgeon didn't have the "luxury" of being able to compare Jerusalem 70 AD with the Holocaust, did he. And yet there is still worse in the future just prior to Messiah's return.

You falsely assume those living in Israel today or in the future have any association with the Jews of the 1st century. Secondly there is nothing worse that can happen to a people than to cease to exist as a covenantal people of God. Thirdly you ignore the context of verse 34:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Quote:
Loraine Boettner
"Premillennialists of both schools relate the prophecy concerning a Great Tribulation to a future period, holding that it occurs at the very end of the age, and are so blind to the fact that it already has been fulfilled literally in the year 70 A.D.

He's just another one, like Hymenaeus, to be turned over to Satan that he learn not to blaspheme by saying that the resurrection has already come. (1Tim 1:20, 2Tim 2:17-18)

Dude, you really need to study partial-preterism and what it teaches.

The Isa 40:3-4 mentions a "highway" which I then tried to show will be literal in the end times per those verses.

Not even the non-Reformers agree with you:

John Wesley:

Isa 40:3 - The voice - An abrupt speech. Methinks I hear a voice. Wilderness - This immediately relates to the deliverance of the Jews out of Babylon, and smoothing their passage from thence to Judea, which lay through a great wilderness; but principally to their redemption by the Messiah, whose coming was ushered in by the cry of John the baptist, in the wilderness. Prepare ye the way - You to whom this work belongs. He alludes to the custom of princes who send pioneers before them to prepare the way through which they are to pass. The meaning is, God shall by his spirit so dispose mens hearts, and by his providence so order the affairs of the world, as to make way for the accomplishment of his promise. This was eminently fulfilled, when Christ, who was, and is God, blessed for ever, came into the world in a visible manner.

Plus in the verses you mention, Jesus tells us the "Elijah shall TRULY come first" but as regarding John the Baptist being Elijah, He says "If you can receive it."

No, Jesus was quite clear on the matter and the Disciples realizing it wasn’t to be the reincarnation or reappearing of Elijah but was John:

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Gill, on what is meant by “restore all things”:

and restore all things. The Syriac and Persic versions render it, "shall perfect, or complete all things", that are prophesied of him; and shall put a period to the law and the prophets, and close the Mosaic economy, and direct persons to Christ; in whom are the perfection of the law, and the fulfilling of the prophets.

However, they did restore the spiritual foundations of the yet to come earthly kingdom, right?

Perhaps you can show us in the OT where two Kingdoms were to come, one spiritual and one physical.

Quote:
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Right here you are starting to get the sense of it. The "groundwork" of John's ministry was spiritual preparation of Israel for Messiah.

Hello, that was the prophecy of Malachi telling us what “Elijah” would do:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[Grasshopper]

I believe that the nation will be the size it was under David -- that kingdom will be restored till midtrib when Elijah and Moses will be slain and raptured.

Lets see, was that book 10 or 11 of the Left Behind series?:laugh:

Thanks for the lesson -- but Isa 13:10 is another description, as Mt 24:29 is, of Rev 16:10-21. Shall we just confirm this together?

13:11 -- "...I will punish the WORLD for their evil..." The Rev 16 plagues are known as "the wrath of God" and they are upon the whole world.

Lets see, did Caesar tax the Chinese and American Indians? After all Luke says the WHOLE world:

Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Now for another lesson, the Hebrew word for world is:

תּבל
têbêl
tay-bale'
From H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension the globe; by implication its inhabitants; specifically a particular land, as Babylonia or Palestine: - habitable part, world.

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not value silver; and they shall not delight in gold.

Who are these “Medes” if not the ancient Medes? Perhaps Islamic terrorists????

And what are these “swords” they use?

Isa 13:15 Everyone who is found shall be thrust through; and everyone who is joined to them shall fall by the sword.


Could they really be Hydrogen bombs that make the eyes dissolve??? Oh wait, you take the Bible literally. They must really be swords and it must really be the ancient Medes destroying the ancient Babylon. You are aware that that really happened?

Isa 13:13 So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of Hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.

Albert Barnes:

Isa 13:13 -
Therefore I will shake the heavens - A strong, but common figure of speech in the Scriptures, to denote great commotions, judgments, and revolutions. The figure is taken from the image of a furious storm and tempest, when the sky, the clouds, the heavens, appear to be in commotion; compare 1Sa_22:8 :
Then the earth shook and trembled,
The foundation of heaven moved and shook,
Because he was wroth.
See also Isa_24:19-20; Hag_2:6-7.
And the earth shall remove out of her place - A common figure in the Scriptures to denote the great effects of the wrath of God; as if even the earth should be appalled at his presence, and should tremble and flee away from the dread of his anger. It is a very sublime representation, and, as carried out often by the sacred writers, it is unequalled in grandeur, probably, in any language. Thus the hills, the mountains, the trees, the streams, the very heavens, are represented as shaken, and thrown into consternation at the presence of God; see Hab_3:6, Hab_3:10 :

This would have been the gospel of which Jesus said to the 70, "You will not have visited all the cities of Israel before this gospel is fulfilled in your sight."

What do you use, The Living Bible?

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another; for truly I say to you, In no way shall you have finished the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Another very preteristic verse.

And they hadn't by Palm Sunday when He rode into Jerusalem to the acclaim of people that He was King! But as we know, He couldn't set up His literal, earthly kingdom at that time, could He?

Why not? He had His chance:

Joh 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they would come and take Him by force, that they might make Him a king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain alone by Himself.

It was NEVER Jesus’ mission to set up an earthly Kingdom. He came to die.

Psa 2:1-4 is a prophecy regarding Armageddon.

I must admit I don’t think I’ve ever heard that interpretation. I’ll just let it stand as is and let others decide.

How is it that the kingdom you speak of was "left to other people," the Gentiles?? How do you see that Christ's kingdom "break ... and consume all these nations?"

Let’s establish the “when” before the “how”. The nature doesn’t determine the timing, the timing determines the nature.

Your MISunderstanding of the purposes for them in the MK. They will be "remembrances" and worship -- just like our communion -- just like the "new song" or "song of Moses" in heaven

Find that in the passage. I don’t think you can. But I found numerous that speak of SIN offerings, not memorial offerings. That is an invention of dispies.

Actually, you should be able to tell by my post that I get along quite well with the Bible alone, now.

Yes, obviously no Hebrew or Greek lexicons are anywhere near you. Good ole KJV right?:thumbs:

 

[skypair]

Grasshopper,

Well, It seems I've met my match ---- NOT!

Perhaps you can explain then how the following verses are possible if their flesh, eyes, and tongues have dissolved.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Sure can. Read Ezek 38:17-23. This section of Ezek 38 describes Armageddon just prior to Christ's return. At the sign of His coming, the armies will fight amongst each other as men are wont to do in panic and fear.

You falsely assume those living in Israel today or in the future have any association with the Jews of the 1st century. Secondly there is nothing worse that can happen to a people than to cease to exist as a covenantal people of God. Thirdly you ignore the context of verse 34:

First, they DO have an association with the 1st century Israel. Then and this generation will soon account for the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's people and the holy city. Second, they didn't cease to exist but are even today regathering as a separate nation, religion, and race. Thirdly, Mt 24:34's "generation" refers to the people that see Israel revived as the fig tree Jesus had just pointed out to them.

Not even the non-Reformers agree with you:

It does make it a lot easier to see prophecy when it is happening right before your eyes. There were teachers who saw it in scripture though Israel was no nation, but it took a pretty keen student of scripture to pick it out. And you'd also have to consider that the whole of Christianity had already rennounced Israel and replaced her with the church.

Perhaps you can show us in the OT where two Kingdoms were to come, one spiritual and one physical.

Ezek 37:12-14, 21-25. This is probably where it appears the clearest. How do your "prophets" mangle these words?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Lets see, was that book 10 or 11 of the Left Behind series?:laugh:

Uh, actually, it's in Revelations. You ought to read it sometime. It's that last book in the BIBLE. :laugh:

Lets see, did Caesar tax the Chinese and American Indians? After all Luke says the WHOLE world:

Um, does context have any bearing on your interpretations of words. I hope so because Paul warned Timothy (2Tim 2:14) that we ought not strive about "words to no profit but to the subverting of the hearers." But also, I would be interested in what part of the world "gets a pass" when God does "punish the world."

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not value silver; and they shall not delight in gold.

Who are these “Medes” if not the ancient Medes? Perhaps Islamic terrorists????

There are many prophecies where the long term prophecy is "imbedded" in the near term one. One I've given you already was Isa 9:6 -- "For unto us a child is born..." Another is Ezek 38:1-25.

Albert Barnes:

Well, of course someone who doesn't believe that there has been or will be a literal fulfillment has to say these are "figures of speech" so he can erase the challenge they present to his pet theory. But many people have gotten their names and reputations via cogent theories that were found later to be empty of truth -- Darwin, for instance. That could be turned back on LaHaye, sure. So let's just try to read scripture and not make too much of what others say, eh?

What do you use, The Living Bible?

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another; for truly I say to you, In no way shall you have finished the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

You apparently didn't read the full instructions. "Flee" would equate to "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet" OR else Jesus, too, is speaking of 2 different eras, right? Because it doesn't appear that when He began their instructions that He perceived to put them in danger. And really, He didn't. Do you remember the glowing reports they brought back? Indeed, I believe that while He was on the earth, Jesus protected His disciples as if they were servants of Himself as King (re: the storm on Galilee, etc.). Once again you have floundered into a misunderstanding of the text.

Find that in the passage. I don’t think you can. But I found numerous that speak of SIN offerings, not memorial offerings. That is an invention of dispies.

I'll look it over again. I know that is the teaching but I don't know the exact location of the citation.

Yes, obviously no Hebrew or Greek lexicons are anywhere near you. Good ole KJV right?:thumbs:

[/quote] Friend, the "good ole KJV" has the Holy Spirit in it. Your lexicons have the spirit of man in them -- how man thinks he would say it. Alas, if he knew what he was talking about in the first place! :laugh:

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Mt 24:34's "generation" refers to the people that see Israel revived as the fig tree Jesus had just pointed out to them.

No, it says : “all these things are fulfilled” It says nothing of a revived Israel. The “all these things” are the events in the preceding verses. When Matthew uses “this generation” it refers to Jesus’ contemporaries in all other places.

Leading dispie Thomas Ice tries to make your point:

"While it is true that other uses of "this generation" refer to Christ's contemporaries, that is because they are historical texts. The use of "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse in the fig tree passages are prophetic texts. In fact, when one compares the historical use of "this generation" at the beginning of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 23:36 (which is an undisputed reference to A.D.70) with the prophetic use in 24:34, a contrast is obvious." [Ice and Gentry, The Great Tribulation Past or Future (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), 103-104.]

But Kenneth Gentry points out the obvious problem:
"Ice tries to distinguish Jesus' use of "this generation" in Matthew 23:36 from the same phrase in 24:34 on the basis that 23:36 is "historical" while 24:34 is "prophetical." Bute note: (1) Both are prophetic. In Matthew 23 Jesus prophesies future persecution for his own disciples (23:34) and the catastrophic calamity to befall the Pharisees in A.D.70 (23:35). Declaring future events in advance is, by definition, "prophetic." [Ice and Gentry, The Great Tribulation Past or Future (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), 182.]

It does make it a lot easier to see prophecy when it is happening right before your eyes.

Ahh yes, newspaper exegesis.

Ezek 37:12-14, 21-25. This is probably where it appears the clearest. How do your "prophets" mangle these words?

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
Eze 37:14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.

You say Israel is already back in the land as a fulfillment of prophecy, yet the text clearly states the Spirit will be put in them and they shall live and they will know Jehovah has done it. Is this what has happened in modern, secular, mostly agnostic Israel today?

Don’t stop at verse 25, unless of course you’re intentionally trying to ignore the context:

Eze 37:26 And I will cut a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
Eze 37:27 And My tabernacle shall be with them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 37:28 And the nations shall know that I Jehovah sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever.

Paul quotes this and applies it to 1st century believers:

2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Eph 2:20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord;
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit.

 

[Grasshopper]

Uh, actually, it's in Revelations. You ought to read it sometime. It's that last book in the BIBLE.

I read it enough to know how to spell it.

Quote:
Lets see, did Caesar tax the Chinese and American Indians? After all Luke says the WHOLE world:

Um, does context have any bearing on your interpretations of words.

Bingo!!! We have yet another winner!!!:applause: That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you, CONTEXT. The context of Isaiah 13 is the destruction of the Babylonian world by the Medes.

There are many prophecies where the long term prophecy is "imbedded" in the near term one.

So now you think Is. 13 was describing the destruction of Babylon?? You seem confused.

Quote:
Albert Barnes:

Well, of course someone who doesn't believe that there has been or will be a literal fulfillment has to say these are "figures of speech" so he can erase the challenge they present to his pet theory.

Once again you show you don’t know the difference between partial-preterism and full-preterism.:BangHead: Albert Barnes and the others would fall into the partial-preterist positions. Assuming of course you know what those positions are.

So let's just try to read scripture and not make too much of what others say, eh?

Sorry, I don’t practice “lone ranger hermeneutics”. Past theologians offer much info on the history, language and idioms of the Hebrew people and bible. But I’m sure you were never taught a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel, that came from just your own reading of scripture, right?

You apparently didn't read the full instructions. "Flee" would equate to "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet" OR else Jesus, too, is speaking of 2 different eras, right? Because it doesn't appear that when He began their instructions that He perceived to put them in danger. And really, He didn't. Do you remember the glowing reports they brought back? Indeed, I believe that while He was on the earth, Jesus protected His disciples as if they were servants of Himself as King (re: the storm on Galilee, etc.). Once again you have floundered into a misunderstanding of the text.

I have no idea what point you are attempting to make.

Quote:
Find that in the passage. I don’t think you can. But I found numerous that speak of SIN offerings, not memorial offerings. That is an invention of dispies.

I'll look it over again. I know that is the teaching but I don't know the exact location of the citation.

Tick tock……………….:sleeping_2:

Friend, the "good ole KJV" has the Holy Spirit in it. Your lexicons have the spirit of man in them -- how man thinks he would say it. Alas, if he knew what he was talking about in the first place!

You’re right, who needs Hebrew or Greek lexicons.

 

[EdSutton]

Uh, actually, it's in Revelations. You ought to read it sometime. It's that last book in the BIBLE.

I read it enough to know how to spell it.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif][/FONT]

Ed

 

[skypair]

No, it says : “all these things are fulfilled” It says nothing of a revived Israel. The “all these things” are the events in the preceding verses. When Matthew uses “this generation” it refers to Jesus’ contemporaries in all other places.

Thank you, gh, for that commentary. :jesus: There is a very healthy debate on this passage, isn't there? There is also the analysis that "this generation" speaks of some future generation just like the one Jesus is addressing in Mt 23:36 and 24:33-34.

I take my lead from 24:32-33, the fig tree (national Israel) for my "future" context of Jesus remarks. The "fig tree" has to be one of the "all these things," right?

But futher -- "when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." See, even if you make Mt 24:3-30 out to have happened in 70 AD, there was NOTHING else in the prophecy that was near to being fulfillled ("near, even at the doors")?? The "kingdom" you speak of was set up in Acts 2 almost 40 years earlier! So what are you claiming was "even at the doors?"

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
Eze 37:14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.

You say Israel is already back in the land as a fulfillment of prophecy, yet the text clearly states the Spirit will be put in them and they shall live and they will know Jehovah has done it. Is this what has happened in modern, secular, mostly agnostic Israel today?

No. According to Ezek 36, Zech 10-11, Joel 2 is very good on this even to describing their "turn[ing] to Me" midtrib, Ezek 38 ("living in unwalled villages" when Gog attacks) -- there is a period during which they will be called back in unbelief before the final 7 years. In fact, the next war with their neighbors (Zech 11:1-3) will likely restablish David's kingdom and temple worship and "unwalled villages" via AC's "peace treaty" (Zech 11:7 -- do you recognize the "3 shepherds cut off" in 11:8? compare Dan 7:8) and I can say, "I told you so!" :laugh:

Don’t stop at verse 25, unless of course you’re intentionally trying to ignore the context:

Eze 37:26 And I will cut a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
Eze 37:27 And My tabernacle shall be with them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 37:28 And the nations shall know that I Jehovah sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever.

Yep. First His sanctuary will be the Millennial temple of Ezekiel and then the New Jerusalem come down from heaven, Rev 21.

Paul quotes this and applies it to 1st century believers:

2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Well, unless you are going to allegorize all the meaning out of it! :laugh: Is the church "in the midst" of ISRAEL as you would have the passage prophesy? I would say the church is everywhere BUT in their midst!

Eph 2:20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

And what "sanctuary" has a foundation of the apostles? NJ -- Rev 21:14. And has the "prophets" or teachers as "pillars?" -- Rev 3:12

Eph 2:21 in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord;
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit.

Good! Now look at 1Cor 3:10-12 and see how the materials for NJ are sent there to build the city, sanctuary, and walls! "Gold, silver, precious stones" are our "building materials." Aren't these what NJ is made of? Isn't this the "temple" we are talking about? God's doing to dwell in it for eternity, Rev 22:3.

You've gotten into a really exciting theme here, gh! And let me just say, many prophecies and even the Jewish feasts have dual fulfillments --- spiritually for the church and the other literally for Israel. Instance -- what is the church's "Passover?" Not Egypt but the cross, right? What is the church's Pentecost? Not Joel 2:28-32 (yet future) but Acts 2:18-21 (Notice Peter leaves out "mount Zion," "Jerusalem," and "remnant," because this was NOT that day spoken of by Joel).

And that is what I have been trying to impress on you and others like you -- the distinction between spiritual fulfillment and literal and why that difference exists. Basically, y'all just want to omit the literal or, as John put it "...take away from the words of the prophecy..."

skypair

 

[skypair]

You’re right, who needs Hebrew or Greek lexicons.

Now that's the Spirit!! Unlike the OT, the NT was written to be translated into many languages without losing the Spirit of the Word. And further, the work of translation has been pretty much done for us since the 1500's. Yeah, the particular conjugation of a Greek verb here and there adds a degree of interest --- but I think we can get the message without it. Most of lexical work being done now is for academic glory rather than for God's glory.

skykpair

 

[Grasshopper]

There is also the analysis that "this generation" speaks of some future generation just like the one Jesus is addressing in Mt 23:36 and 24:33-34.

You seem to be the only one who believes the “this generation” of Matt. 23 is a still future generation.

I take my lead from 24:32-33, the fig tree (national Israel) for my "future" context of Jesus remarks. The "fig tree" has to be one of the "all these things," right?

No, the fig tree was just an analogy just as the use of “summer” was.

Luke not only uses the fig tree but all the trees in his version:

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

If the fig tree means Israel then Jesus already cursed her never to bear fruit again:

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

But futher -- "when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." See, even if you make Mt 24:3-30 out to have happened in 70 AD, there was NOTHING else in the prophecy that was near to being fulfillled ("near, even at the doors")?? The "kingdom" you speak of was set up in Acts 2 almost 40 years earlier! So what are you claiming was "even at the doors?"

It would become “near” when the events were to begin occurring, they were not occurring when Jesus spoke these words. The events began occurring in the following years with many being recorded in Acts.

there is a period during which they will be called back in unbelief before the final 7 years.

Where is this found in scripture and why does Eze. 37 indicate just the opposite?

Yep. First His sanctuary will be the Millennial temple of Ezekiel and then the New Jerusalem come down from heaven, Rev 21.

I guess you couldn’t find scriptural evidence where those sacrifices are to be “memorials” in Eze. 40-47????? Until you do, your entire argument on the MK Temple is nothing but fanciful speculation based upon nothing but a presupposition.

Paul quotes this and applies it to 1st century believers:

2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of Godhave with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
Well, unless you are going to allegorize all the meaning out of it! Is the church "in the midst" of ISRAEL as you would have the passage prophesy? I would say the church is everywhere BUT in their midst!

Why does Paul quote this verse and apply it to the Corithians?

And what "sanctuary" has a foundation of the apostles? NJ -- Rev 21:14. And has the "prophets" or teachers as "pillars?" -- Rev 3:12

That’s right, the NJ is the Church:


Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

[Grasshopper]

Not Joel 2:28-32 (yet future) but Acts 2:18-21 (Notice Peter leaves out "mountZion," "Jerusalem," and "remnant," because this was NOT that day spoken of by Joel).

First, what is your literal definition of “this is that”?

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Secondly Peter may not have spoken of Mount Zion or Jerusalem, but Paul and the writer of Hebrews did:

Heb 12:22 But you have come to MountZion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


Gal 4:22 For it is written: Abraham had two sons, the one out of the slave-woman, and one out of the free woman.
Gal 4:23 But, indeed, he out of the slave-woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise;
Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalemfrom above is free, who is the mother of us all.

And that is what I have been trying to impress on you and others like you -- the distinction between spiritual fulfillment and literal and why that difference exists. Basically, y'all just want to omit the literal or, as John put it "...take away from the words of the prophecy..."

Perhaps you better read this verse since you like to add your own interpretations to His word:


Rev 22:18 For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book.