Partial Preterist Viewpoint on Revelation

[skypair]

No, the fig tree was just an analogy just as the use of “summer” was.

Well, how nice of you to offer this help -- NOT! Jesus runs into the "fig tree" several times in His ministry (I see you cited the passages for me :thumbs: ) and the disciples knew what it meant. First He told the parable of the fig tree that the vinedressers did keep but, the "master" returning, said they would "dig and dung" it. Later Jesus sees the tree and curses it for not producing fruit saying "let it die forever." But here, to the disciples' amazement, Jesus now says it will revive!

BTW, since you like symbols, the fig tree represents NATIONAL Israel. See any fig trees?

Luke not only uses the fig tree but all the trees in his version:

EXACTLY!! Luke says "Read your newspaper and look for the signs of the other NATIONS as well!!" Good point, gh!

If the fig tree means Israel then Jesus already cursed her never to bear fruit again:

Not, at least, in the state she was then -- subservient to Rome.

I guess you couldn’t find scriptural evidence where those sacrifices are to be “memorials” in Eze. 40-47????? Until you do, your entire argument on the MK Temple is nothing but fanciful speculation based upon nothing but a presupposition.

Now you know that is untrue. That's like the logic of "If a tree falls in the forest and we didn't hear it, did it make a sound?" I'm still looking is all.

Why does Paul quote this verse and apply it to the Corithians?

Cause they're in Corinth, not in the midst of Jerusalem? :laugh: Actually, he quotes it to the Corinthians showing the SPIRITUAL application of the prophecy. Like I've told you before, you are presuming both spiritual and literal fulfillment when only the spiritual apertains historically.

That’s right, the NJ is the Church:

Very good, gh! "Construction" (John 14 "I go to prepare a place for you") of the heavenly equivalent to the "temple" being constructed on earth is even now taking place!! and with all that "gold, silver, and precious stones" might I add!! Only guess what. It's NOT in the midst of Israel nor for Israel whose temple will be earthly.

skypair

 

[skypair]

First, what is your literal definition of “this is that”?

Peter is claiming some equivalency between Joel 2:28-32 and what he is about to say. But because he left out "Jerusalem" and "mount Zion" and "remnant," it is clear he was NOT asserting TOTAL equivalency/fulfillment.

Secondly Peter may not have spoken of Mount Zion or Jerusalem, but Paul and the writer of Hebrews did:

Heb 12:22 But you have come to MountZion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

This is EXCELLENT!! OUR Mt Zion and city is in heaven!! This is Paul's "rapture" experience from 2Cor 12, the equivalent of John's in Rev 4:1!!!
But you can easily see that it was a SPIRITUAL fulfillment -- it's in 3rd HEAVEN -- just as you have been maintaining of our current "kingdom" all along!!

Gal 4:22 For it is written: Abraham had two sons, the one out of the slave-woman, and one out of the free woman.
Gal 4:23 But, indeed, he out of the slave-woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise;
Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalemfrom above is free, who is the mother of us all.

Again, this is good because it shows the TWO FOLDS that Jesus said He "must bring in." BTW, He will let one out in the rapture while He brings the other in during the tribulation.

Second, Paul tells us this is an allegory.

Third, Israel clearly came to "another mountain," Sinai (Heb 12:18-21) -- the law. It does NOT tell us that there is any spiritual fulfilllment for them yet. And further, Gal 4:31 says we are NOT heirs with the bondwoman whose inheritance is clearly EARTHLY and LITERAL Jerusalem/temple/kingdom. Yet you keep insisting that there is 1) no inheritance for them (all their prophecies were fulfilled spiritually in us) or 2) that their inheritance is heavenly with ours and omits ANY literal fulfillment.

So let's get it straight --- We will live in NJ FOREVER. They will live in EARTH FOREVER. Whether the earth is called MK or New Earth, that is THEIR inheritance and it is literal and it is not ours except to visit.

Perhaps you better read this verse since you like to add your own interpretations to His word:

Rev 22:18 For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book.

[/quote] And you see my "additions" as what? My interpretations? We're supposed to discern what the Spirit says to the churches, gh.

But are you hereby admitting (since you ignore my accusation) that you "take away from the words?"

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
No, the fig tree was just an analogy just as the use of “summer” was.

Well, how nice of you to offer this help -- NOT! Jesus runs into the "fig tree" several times in His ministry (I see you cited the passages for me ) and the disciples knew what it meant. First He told the parable of the fig tree that the vinedressers did keep but, the "master" returning, said they would "dig and dung" it.

It’s quite clear to anyone with an open mind that it is an analogy. Verse 33 proves it.


Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near.
Mat 24:33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.

Later Jesus sees the tree and curses it for not producing fruit saying "let it die forever."

Again, not sure why you feel the need to twist the scripture but it clearly says: let no fruit grow on you forever


Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree in the way, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, let no fruit grow on you forever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

But here, to the disciples' amazement, Jesus now says it will revive!

So according to you Jesus contradicts Himself, first saying Israel will “die forever” then saying Israel will live again. But such is the message of the dispies.

EXACTLY!! Luke says "Read your newspaper and look for the signs of the other NATIONS as well!!" Good point, gh!

Really, what other nations are coming back into their land as you believe Israel to be doing??

Quote:
If the fig tree means Israel then Jesus already cursed her never to bear fruit again:

Not, at least, in the state she was then -- subservient to Rome.

Once again adding to scripture. Forcing your interpretation into the text.

Quote:
I guess you couldn’t find scriptural evidence where those sacrifices are to be “memorials” in Eze. 40-47????? Until you do, your entire argument on the MK Temple is nothing but fanciful speculation based upon nothing but a presupposition.

Now you know that is untrue. That's like the logic of "If a tree falls in the forest and we didn't hear it, did it make a sound?" I'm still looking is all.

Your entire doctrine is built on these memorial sacrifices in the MK yet you have no idea where it is found?? Yet you try to convince us your doctrine is built on the literal interpretation of the Bible and not from man. This view comes straight from the Hal Lindsey’s of the world yet you cannot find the basis for it. Yet I showed numerous passages that showed those sacrifices were for SIN and atonement.

Quote:
Why does Paul quote this verse and apply it to the Corithians?

Cause they're in Corinth, not in the midst of Jerusalem? Actually, he quotes it to the Corinthians showing the SPIRITUAL application of the prophecy. Like I've told you before, you are presuming both spiritual and literal fulfillment when only the spiritual apertains historically.

No, I don’t assume both a spiritual and physical fulfillment that is what you have been proposing. Do you even know what you believe??

Very good, gh! "Construction" (John 14 "I go to prepare a place for you") of the heavenly equivalent to the "temple" being constructed on earth is even now taking place!! and with all that "gold, silver, and precious stones" might I add!! Only guess what. It's NOT in the midst of Israel nor for Israel whose temple will be earthly.

?????

 

[Grasshopper]

Peter is claiming some equivalency between Joel 2:28-32 and what he is about to say. But because he left out "Jerusalem" and "mount Zion" and "remnant," it is clear he was NOT asserting TOTAL equivalency/fulfillment.

Once again, you twist scripture to fit your view. Here is literally what he said:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

He didn’t say this is similar, he didn’t say this is like, and he surely didn’t say this is some sort of equivalency. Forgive me if in the future I just laugh :laugh: when you claim to take the Bible literally.

Third, Israel clearly came to "another mountain," Sinai (Heb 12:18-21) -- the law. It does NOT tell us that there is any spiritual fulfilllment for them yet. And further, Gal 4:31 says we are NOT heirs with the bondwoman whose inheritance is clearly EARTHLY and LITERAL Jerusalem/temple/kingdom. Yet you keep insisting that there is 1) no inheritance for them (all their prophecies were fulfilled spiritually in us) or 2) that their inheritance is heavenly with ours and omits ANY literal fulfillment.

All the types and shadows of the Old Covenant (Israel’s promises) find their fulfillment in the Church. The Church is Israel, Israel became the Church. There are not two separate plans of God. Another invention of dispies.

So let's get it straight --- We will live in NJ FOREVER. They will live in EARTH FOREVER. Whether the earth is called MK or New Earth, that is THEIR inheritance and it is literal and it is not ours except to visit.

Unbelievable.

But are you hereby admitting (since you ignore my accusation) that you "take away from the words?"

Juvenile nonsense.

 

[Brother Bob]

Grasshopper; All the types and shadows of the Old Covenant (Israel’s promises) find their fulfillment in the Church. The Church is Israel, Israel became the Church. There are not two separate plans of God. Another invention of dispies.

I will amen that if it includes the Gentiles grafted in?

BBob,

 

[Grasshopper]

I will amen that if it includes the Gentiles grafted in?

BBob,

I hope so since I'm a gentile.

 

[dragonfly]

In spite of the knock-down-drag-out nature of this discussion, I thank you for the information, especially Grasshopper.

I am presently reading a book on line titled. "The Days of Vengeance" by David Chilton. I have found it interesting although I am still in the early part of the book.

I was saved in a dispensational church many years ago and have attended such churches my entire life. There has always been somethings about this view that concerned me. I have a close friend who is a parital preterist, and although I didn't believe him at first, I see that things he says seem to make much more sense than dispensaitonalism. I have not made any firm commitments, but I will continue to study this our for myself. Again, thanks for the information.

 

[Grasshopper]

In spite of the knock-down-drag-out nature of this discussion, I thank you for the information, especially Grasshopper.

I am presently reading a book on line titled. "The Days of Vengeance" by David Chilton. I have found it interesting although I am still in the early part of the book.

I was saved in a dispensational church many years ago and have attended such churches my entire life. There has always been somethings about this view that concerned me. I have a close friend who is a parital preterist, and although I didn't believe him at first, I see that things he says seem to make much more sense than dispensaitonalism. I have not made any firm commitments, but I will continue to study this our for myself. Again, thanks for the information.

May I suggest Gary DeMar's, "Last Days Madness" for your next book. It jettisoned me out of dispie land and I've never looked back.

 

[skypair]

Here is literally what he said:[/FONT][/COLOR]
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

And then forgot the last half a verse of a 4 verse passage (Joel 2:28-32). Hey, that makes him just like you -- only he didn't have The Revelation to "take away from." :BangHead:

[/FONT][/COLOR]
All the types and shadows of the Old Covenant (Israel’s promises) find their fulfillment in the Church. The Church is Israel, Israel became the Church. There are not two separate plans of God. Another invention of dispies.

So you attend synagogue on Saturdays?

And I suppose Paul could have been praying for the church when he said "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for [THE CHURCH] is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." Rom 10:1-2

Or "Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. ... What then? [THE CHURCH] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election ["remnant" 11:5] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Rom 11:1, 7

Surely we can just insert "THE CHURCH" for Israel since Romans was written in 51 AD, right?

Unbelievable.

I truly hate that you think so since I got it from the Spirit. Ever read Prov 8:39? " For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

Oops, you got a piece of baloney slippin' out of your mouth. :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

It’s quite clear to anyone with an open mind that it is an analogy. Verse 33 proves it.

So that makes it irrelevant? We should just ignore it?? It's not one of the "all these things" that we should expect to see??

Again, not sure why you feel the need to twist the scripture but it clearly says: let no fruit grow on you forever


Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree in the way, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, let no fruit grow on you forever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

Six of one, half dozen of another. Why is it you care so much about this detail and NOT about Joel 2:32b???

So according to you Jesus contradicts Himself, first saying Israel will “die forever” then saying Israel will live again. But such is the message of the dispies.

Apparenlty you omitted some of my words like you do scriptural words [Go figure.]. I said they wouldn't revive bearing fruit in the same state that Jesus condemned them in -- governed by Rome. Protected - yeah; governed - no. And the "tree" will be the 144,000 who flee into the wilderness and survive the GT.

Really, what other nations are coming back into their land as you believe Israel to be doing??

Goodness! You really DON'T know your way around this stuff, do you?? The SIGNS OF THE OTHER NATIONS are like this -- Rome develops back into a unified state of 10 lead nations, Rev 13:1, Rev 17:12. Gog/Russia is ready to support Iran in attacking Israel, Ezek 38. The nations surrounding Israel are ready to make their own war with her, Zech 11:1-4.

skypair

 

[skypair]

May I suggest Gary DeMar's, "Last Days Madness" for your next book. It jettisoned me out of dispie land and I've never looked back.

I see. So you left the LITERAL-HISTORICAL-GRAMMATICISTS for the ALLEGORICALISTS. IOW, you cleave to the ones who can make the Bible look like a bag of 'no salt' pretzels.

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
Here is literally what he said:
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

And then forgot the last half a verse of a 4 verse passage (Joel 2:28-32). Hey, that makes him just like you -- only he didn't have The Revelation to "take away from."

So you now believe Peter was not inspired to speak such things? Peter was wrong to apply this passage in Joel to the day of Pentecost?

Quote:

All the types and shadows of the Old Covenant (

Israel’s promises) find their fulfillment in the Church. The Church is Israel, Israel became the Church. There are not two separate plans of God. Another invention of dispies.

So you attend synagogue on Saturdays?

I didn’t know that was a condition under the New Covenant. Paul didn’t think so:

Col2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Oh wait, dispies don't believe the New Covenant has been consummated yet.

Surely we can just insert "THE CHURCH" for Israel since Romans was written in 51 AD, right?

You could if you didn’t understand the argument. Which is why you do.

I truly hate that you think so since I got it from the Spirit. Ever read Prov 8:39?

I must have a preterist Bible because it only goes up to verse 36 in Proverbs 8.

Ever read this: 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper


It’s quite clear to anyone with an open mind that it is an analogy. Verse 33 proves it.

So that makes it irrelevant? We should just ignore it?? It's not one of the "all these things" that we should expect to see??

No it’s not, just like summer arriving is not a sign.

Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree in the way, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, let no fruit grow on you forever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.
Six of one, half dozen of another. Why is it you care so much about this detail and NOT about Joel 2:32b???

Because you say verse 19 is false.

Apparenlty you omitted some of my words like you do scriptural words [Go figure.]. I said they wouldn't revive bearing fruit in the same state that Jesus condemned them in -- governed by Rome.

Where is their state ever mentioned in the scripture? It says nothing about the state of Israel. You just read that into the text because it fits your eschatology. YOu keep adding to scripture, Go figure.

And the "tree" will be the 144,000 who flee into the wilderness and survive the GT.

So now you say the tree doesn’t represent Israel, just the 144,000.

Goodness! You really DON'T know your way around this stuff, do you?? The SIGNS OF THE OTHER NATIONS are like this -- Rome develops back into a unified state of 10 lead nations,

Where is a revived Roman Empire found in scripture. BTW, I don’t consider “The Late Great Planet Earth” as scripture.

Rev 13:1, Rev 17:12. Gog/Russia is ready to support Iran in attacking Israel, Ezek 38. The nations surrounding Israel are ready to make their own war with her, Zech 11:1-4.

You must be watching reruns of TBN circa 1981.

 

[skypair]

So you now believe Peter was not inspired to speak such things? Peter was wrong to apply this passage in Joel to the day of Pentecost?

Absolutely not. But YOU are not "not understanding the argument." :laugh: The argument is that this is merely the giving of the spirit of the new covenant. All the things given to the church are spiritual, not physical -- not literal fulfillments of any prophecy until NJ. THEREFORE, Peter did not mention the literal mount Zion, Jerusalem, and remnant.

I didn’t know that [Sabbath-keeping] was a condition under the New Covenant. Paul didn’t think so:

It is a condition of the nc with Israel as Ezek 40-48 shows.

I must have a preterist Bible because it only goes up to verse 36 in Proverbs 8.

Sorry. Guess since you don't acknowledge having read the end of the chapter, I'll have to "spoon feed" it to you FWIW -- "For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

Ever read this: 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Um -- yeah. Ever read that what that means is that the writers were not interpretting anything but writing what they were strictlly told by the Spirit to write?

No it’s not, just like summer arriving is not a sign.

You got your "signs" confused, bro. The LEAVES are the sign that summer is near --- just like revived Israel is a sign that His return is near, "even at the door." Thus, the leafing fig tree becomes one of "all these things" we are told we will be signs that the time is near.

Where is their state ever mentioned in the scripture? It says nothing about the state of Israel. You just read that into the text because it fits your eschatology. YOu keep adding to scripture, Go figure.

Ah! There's one of your problems -- not knowing symbolic significance of "trees" in scripture. Judges 9:10 The fig tree repersents "political" rule of Israel -- the "olive tree" is religious rule -- the "vine" represents spiritual rule (You will find this carried into the NT in Mt 24, Rom 11 and John 15 respectively). So when 1Kings 4:25 says "every man [of Israel and Judah] dwelt under his vine and under his fig tree," we see that there was political and spiritual peace in Israel.

Or look at Joel's account of Israel in Joel 1:2, 7 "...and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? ... He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white." This is post 70 AD! "9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD..."

So now you say the tree doesn’t represent Israel, just the 144,000.

No. But the "firstfruits" (Rev 7, 14:4) of the "summer" may well be the 144,000.

Where is a revived Roman Empire found in scripture. BTW, I don’t consider “The Late Great Planet Earth” as scripture.

Dan 2:40-45, 7:7, Rev 17:18

You must be watching reruns of TBN circa 1981.

It won't bother me that you are flippant about all this prophecy stuff. If you didn't "stand" somewhere, you'd never learn from your mistakes. :laugh:

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Absolutely not. But YOU are not "not understanding the argument." The argument is that this is merely the giving of the spirit of the new covenant. All the things given to the church are spiritual, not physical -- not literal fulfillments of any prophecy until NJ. THEREFORE, Peter did not mention the literal mountZion, Jerusalem, and remnant.

Peter on the day of Pentecost quotes from Joel 2:32, (which you say is still future)

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Where shall this deliverance take place:

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Again I repeat, the writer of Hebrews explains this quite well:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mountSion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Even Gill a dispie understands the language:

but, by "Mount Sion", and the other names here given, is meant the church of God, under the Gospel dispensation, to which the believing Hebrews were come; in distinction from the legal dispensation, signified by Mount Sinai, from which they were delivered: and this is called Mount Sion, because, like that, it is beloved of God; chosen by him; and is the place of his habitation; here his worship is, and his word and ordinances are administered; here he communes with his people, and distributes his blessings and this, as Mount Sion, is a perfection of beauty the joy of the whole earth; is strongly fortified by divine power, and is immovable; and is comparable to that mountain, for its height and holiness: and to come to Sion is to become a member of a Gospel church, and partake of the ordinances, enjoy the privileges, and perform the duties belonging to it:

and unto the city of the living God; the Gospel church is a city, built on Christ, the foundation;

The heavenly Jerusalem: the church of God goes by the name of Jerusalem often, both in the Old and in the New Testament; with which it agrees in its name, which signifies the vision of peace, or they shall see peace: Christ, the King of it, is the Prince of peace;

So if you wish to think it’s still future be my guest.

It is a condition of the nc with Israel as Ezek 40-48 shows.

Oh yea, that NC that has those “memorial sacrifices”. Have you found those yet? Perhaps before commenting again you can find those verses telling us how blood sacrifices are for a memorial and then explain why Eze. 40-48 mention sacrifices for sin and atonement.

Sorry. Guess since you don't acknowledge having read the end of the chapter, I'll have to "spoon feed"

I did read the end of the chapter, but you told me to read verse 39. So go ahead and quote verse 39 of Proverbs 8. Maybe that’s where those “memorial sacrifices” are.

Um -- yeah. Ever read that what that means is that the writers were not interpretting anything but writing what they were strictlly told by the Spirit to write?

No, I never read that. Where can I find that belief?? The OT Prophets often wrote without understanding but when a NT writer such as Peter or Paul quotes from the OT he is interpreting the text for his audience. James does this:

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

You got your "signs" confused, bro. The LEAVES are the sign that summer is near --- just like revived Israel is a sign that His return is near, "even at the door."

60 years and counting……………….

Yet there was James living in the 1st century saying the same thing,

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

I guess Israel had been revived somewhere between Jesus’ death and 50-60 AD.

 

[Grasshopper]

Ah! There's one of your problems -- not knowing symbolic significance of "trees" in scripture.

Wow, were making progress, you do believe the Bible uses symbolism. Now try reading Revelation with this new found knowledge in mind.

Or look at Joel's account of Israel in Joel 1:2, 7 "...and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? ... He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white." This is post 70 AD!

Why do you say this is post AD70? Did you forget verse 6?
Gill Comments:

Joe 1:6 - For a nation is come up upon my land,.... A nation of locusts, so called from their great numbers, and coming from foreign parts; just as the ants are called a "people", and the conies a "folk", Pro_30:25; and which were an emblem of the nation of the Chaldeans, which came up from Babylon, and invaded the land of Judea; called by the Lord "my land", because he had chosen it for the habitation of his people; here he himself had long dwelt, and had been served and worshipped in it: though Kimchi thinks these are the words of the inhabitants of the land, or of the prophet; but if it can be thought they are any other than the words of God, they rather seem to be expressed by the drunkards in particular, howling for want of wine, and observing the reason of it:

Adam Clarke has an interesting comment:


Joe 1:6 -
A nation is come up upon my land - That real locusts are intended there can be little doubt; but it is thought that this may be a double prophecy, and that the destruction by the Chaldeans may also be intended, and that the four kinds of locusts mentioned above may mean the four several attacks made on Judea by them. The first in the last year of Nabonassar, (father of Nebuchadnezzar), which was the third of Jehoiakim; the second when Jehoiakim was taken prisoner in the eleventh year of his reign; the third in the ninth year of Zedekiah and the fourth three years after, when Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Others say that they mean four powers which have been enemies of the Jews:
1. The palmerworm, the Assyrians and Chaldeans.
2. The locust, the Persians and Medes.
3. The cankerworm, the Greeks, and particularly Antiochus Epiphanes.
4. The caterpillar, the Romans.

I think you have a little too much “private interpretation” going on in your life. Though you won’t admit it I really believe it comes from reading dispie material.

No. But the "firstfruits" (Rev 7, 14:4) of the "summer" may well be the 144,000.

The firstfruits/ 144000 represent the first Jewish believers:

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

You’re eschatology actually has the firstfruits coming at the end. They would actually be lastfruits in your scheme.

Quote:
Where is a revived Roman Empire found in scripture. BTW, I don’t consider “The Late Great Planet Earth” as scripture.

Dan 2:40-45, 7:7, Rev 17:18

The fourth Kingdom was Rome:

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Every commentator I read understands it to be Rome. It doesn’t say anything about a revived Kingdom. Once again an invention and adding to the text.

There were only four beasts:

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Most agree who they were:

Gill: Dan 7:3 - And four great beasts came up from the sea,.... Which are afterwards interpreted of four kings or kingdoms, Dan_7:17, which rose up in the world, not at once, but successively, and out of the sea or world, through the commotions and agitations of it; and these are the four monarchies, Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and Roman

It won't bother me that you are flippant about all this prophecy stuff. If you didn't "stand" somewhere, you'd never learn from your mistakes.

I learned from my mistakes, that’s why I’m now a preterist.

Don't forget those "memorial sacrifices", I'll be expecting them in your next post.:sleeping_2:

 

[skypair]

Even Gill a dispie understands the language:

but, by "Mount Sion", and the other names here given, is meant the church of God, under the Gospel dispensation, to which the believing Hebrews were come; in distinction from the legal dispensation,...

Apparently he didn't understand. The "mount Sion" that we are called to is HEAVENLY -- spiritual -- vs Mt Sinai, physical. Read Heb 12:22-24. It's ALL in heaven, grasshopper.

and unto the city of the living God; the Gospel church is a city, built on Christ, the foundation;

Yes, "HEAVENLY Jerusalem," Heb 12:22. Or as we see it in Revelation, New Jerusalem with foundations of the apostles made of gold, silver, and precious stones. But right now, we are called SPIRITUALLY to that city. Israel will be called, according to Joel 2:32b to physical, earthly, literal Jerusalem at some time future to us. Do you discern the difference between spiritual Jerusalem in Hebrews and literal Jerusalem in Joel?

Oh yea, that NC that has those “memorial sacrifices”. Have you found those yet? Perhaps before commenting again you can find those verses telling us how blood sacrifices are for a memorial and then explain why Eze. 40-48 mention sacrifices for sin and atonement.

Well, I did manage to find Paul telling the Hebrews that blood sacrifices only EVER "sanctify to the purifying of the flesh." So there was never any taking away of sins thereby and there won't be in the MK. Likely there is "fleshly" price for sin even in the MK (ex: no sacrifice - no rain). That taken in conjunction that the MK is the final, earthly dispensation of the Jews, the "olive tree," I am not sure where you would find this to be in conflict with the presence of Christ on the earth as Messiah and Savior.

No, I never read that. Where can I find that belief?? The OT Prophets often wrote without understanding but when a NT writer such as Peter or Paul quotes from the OT he is interpreting the text for his audience. James does this:

It's right there in the verse. "No prophecy of SCRIPTURE is of private interpretation ... but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." IOW, scripture is written directly by the Holy Ghost.

15:14, 16 ...how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

This really is the key passage, isn't it? FIRST God will call out a people for his name from among the Gentiles --- THEN "I [God/Christ] will return and build again the tabernacle of David [the tabernacle David invisioned but wasn't allowed to build] ..." the true house of God on earth. And that is what I am saying.

What you appear to be saying is that the Gentiles ARE the "tabernacle of David." No. Gentiles have nothing whatsoever in any scripture to do with David!

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

THEN, in the MK, the "residue" -- SURVIVORS of the tribulation -- will seek after the Lord (which, incidentally, is Christ's OT designation).

I guess Israel had been revived somewhere between Jesus’ death and 50-60 AD.

Now seriously -- how does that compare to 1948? Truly, Jerusalem was under even more persecution and oppression as this Christian faith seemed more and more part of Judaism from which it came. Paul even took up a huge collection for the saints in Jerusalem because they couldn't hold jobs and were being "squeezed" already by the Romans.

Look at Israel now. The Jews are gathering back just like scripture said they would, Ezek 36-37, Zech 10, etal.

I appreciate you taking the time to patiently inform me of your perspective. This really is a good way to go through the word and make sure we know what we are talking about.

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Well we’ve about run this into the ground. I’ve provided scripture to support my view and really can’t add much to it. I find it interesting how the pre-Darby commentators handled the prophetic texts compared to those after Darby and the Scofield reference Bible. I'll let those who are still reading this make their own conclusions.

I’ll address some of what you have posted and have given up on you finding evidence in Eze. 40-48 for your “memorial sacrifices”. Considering the importance of that that text in your eschatology I’m surprised you can brush it off so easily.

Apparently he didn't understand. The "mountSion" that we are called to is HEAVENLY -- spiritual -- vs Mt Sinai, physical. Read Heb 12:22-24. It's ALL in heaven, grasshopper.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to MountZion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The writer of Hebrews says they “have come” to MountZion. That is not a future tense. Since you find no value in Greek lexicons we are left with the English version. Perhaps someone familiar with the greek language can add to this but it seems in the English translation it conveys a present or perhaps past tense, but not future. It says they “have come” not “will go.”

Hebrews is a comparison of the Covenants showing the superiority of the New to the Old. This proves my point even more so, in that the earthly (physical) Jerusalem was part of the Old Covenant but the (spiritual) New Jerusalem is associated with the New Covenant. If the new Covenant has arrived, then so has the New Jerusalem.

The Old Covenant contained types and shadows that would find their spiritual fulfillment in the New Covenant. Your philosophy is first comes the natural, then the spiritual but ultimate fulfillment back to the natural. Paul says differently:

1Co 15:46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

Do you discern the difference between spiritual Jerusalem in Hebrews and literal Jerusalem in Joel?

This points out another interpretation problem you have. Something can have a spiritual fulfillment and still be literal.

What you appear to be saying is that the Gentiles ARE the "tabernacle of David." No. Gentiles have nothing whatsoever in any scripture to do with David!

Amo 9:12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the Gentiles on whom My name is called, says Jehovah who is doing this.

James quotes this:


Act 15:16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,

Now I could go into how the Gentiles of this verse might actually be the 10 northern Tribes:
Hos 8:8Israel is swallowed up: now are they among the nations as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

But considering you are having problems grasping the simple I shall not journey into the complex.

Nevertheless, James associates the “Gentiles” with the tabernacle of David despite what you might think.

Quote:

I guess Israel had been revived somewhere between Jesus’ death and 50-60 AD.
Now seriously -- how does that compare to 1948? Truly, Jerusalem was under even more persecution and oppression as this Christian faith seemed more and more part of Judaism from which it came. Paul even took up a huge collection for the saints in Jerusalem because they couldn't hold jobs and were being "squeezed" already by the Romans.

And how does that answer the question that James said the coming of the Lord was near in his day?

Jam 5:8 You also be patient, establish your hearts, for the coming of your Lord draws near.

You say it draws near today. So who should we believe you or James?

Look at Israel now. The Jews are gathering back just like scripture said they would, Ezek 36-37, Zech 10, etal.

And as I’ve already pointed out, nothing in modern Israel comes close to fulfilling these passages.


Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
Eze 37:14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.

Let the NT writers interpret the OT for us.

Don't substitute John Hagee, Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye for Peter, James and Paul.

 

[skypair]

Heb 12:22 But you have come to MountZion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The writer of Hebrews says they “have come” to MountZion. That is not a future tense.

And where does Paul say our "citizenship" is as believers? IN HEAVEN, right? IOW, we are not waiting to go to heaven for Heb 12:22's "you are come to" to be fulfilled. Spiritually, it happens the moment we believe. So I agree with you as to tense -- I do not agree that a physical, earthly, literal kingdom as was promised to Israel is in view at all.

Hebrews is a comparison of the Covenants showing the superiority of the New to the Old. This proves my point even more so, in that the earthly (physical) Jerusalem was part of the Old Covenant but the (spiritual) New Jerusalem is associated with the New Covenant. If the new Covenant has arrived, then so has the New Jerusalem.

Your first point that I heartily embrace! In fact, we find Paul writing in 65 AD that the OC is "waxing old and IS READY TO VANISH AWAY" in anticipation of 70AD --- in anticipation that God would take the OC and Israel OUT of the plan, NOT into it and "inclusion" or "replacement" theologists tell us! In a short 5 years, the earthly kingdom of the OLD COVENANT and of Christ/Messiah would be put off for 2000 years!!

The Old Covenant contained types and shadows that would find their spiritual fulfillment in the New Covenant. Your philosophy is first comes the natural, then the spiritual but ultimate fulfillment back to the natural. Paul says differently:

1Co 15:46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

And yet in the parables of the kingdom of heaven [earthly kingdom], Jesus says, "That which is first shall be last and the last first." (Mt 20:16, 19:30, 22:14) That is, we come last into the earth but first into the "kingdom" -- but it is a spiritual kingdom. Then they which were first (Adam to John the Baptist) shall come into the kingdom last -- but theirs is earthly.

This points out another interpretation problem you have. Something can have a spiritual fulfillment and still be literal.

It can be fulfilled spiritually but in that manner it cannot be fulfilled COMPLETELY. If I promise to give you a dime and then give you 10 pennies, I've fulfilled the spiritual aspect of the promise but not the literal, have I? the same idea/spirit is in the 10 pennies but I lied in saying I would give you a dime. Do you think that is a significant lapse in my credibility?

Would you feel "lied to" if your "King" came as a "Lamb" instead of as the "Lion of Judah" and that was what God considered to be complete fulfillment of His promise -- His word -- to you? No, Jesus is coming literally one day as the "Lion of Judah" and we read about it from Genesis to Revelation.

Now I could go into how the Gentiles of this verse might actually be the 10 northern Tribes:

Again, you would be looking for the 10 pennies and not the dime. You may well be satisfied with that but the "prophets" were not "interpretting" what God said into literal people, places, and things. The Spirit "spoke EXPRESSLY" regarding departure from the faith and not figuratively so that the prophets had to interpret what they saw rather than write them down as future fulfillments.

Nevertheless, James associates the “Gentiles” with the tabernacle of David despite what you might think.

That's interpretation. I would say that "tabernacle of David" is so specific as to defy any spiritual application.

And how does that answer the question that James said the coming of the Lord was near in his day?

Same as Paul did when he said "then we which are alive and remain will be caught up to heaven..." They all believed the rapture would happen within John's lifetime, John 21:23, and after that the tribulation and kingdom! They didn't realize that the fulfillment would be as was a previous one, Mt 16:28 = Mt 17:2-5 and John 21:22 = Rev 4:1! Notice again -- literal promises are fulfilled SPIRITUALLY to the "church."

I think you will find that this anticipation wore off in the course of time. James wrote the first epistle of the NT -- Paul's Thessalonians (where we find his "we" statement) were 2nd and 3rd behind it. In his later epistles he appears to have put the event farther into the future.

And as I’ve already pointed out, nothing in modern Israel comes close to fulfilling these passages.

That is a "where is the sign of His coming" statement of a "scoffer" (2Pet 3:4) if ever I heard one. Get ahold of yourself, gh. While you say that many "signs" aren't fulfilled literally, you deny the ones that are beginning to be seen. What kind of "watching and praying" (Luke 21:36, 1Pet 4:7) is that?

I guess I'm really curious what motivates preterists to "see" events from scripture as if they had already happened. And what makes them lay claim on prophecies that were never addressed to them in the first place? The church was unknown in the OT -- a "mystery," 1Cor 2:7-8. What is the difficulty of seeing a present spiritual kingdom as counterdistinct from a future literal kingdom?

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

For those who are interested, Gary DeMar covered this topic on his last show: http://www.americanvision.org/radio/tgds/17May2008.mp3

 

[skypair]

For those who are interested, Gary DeMar covered this topic on his last show: http://www.americanvision.org/radio/tgds/17May2008.mp3

Predictions of dispies that didn't come true? Is that your problem?

World view? You don't have a "world view." Yours is a "kingdom view" which only involves western thinking.

Prophetic "speculation?" Don't be silly! That's just prejudicial thinking. I'm right -- you're wrong.

Mt 24 is Jesus age? NO! End of age -- right! End of OC age -- YES! But the OC age ends with the 70th week of Daniel which has NOT come, dude! The "age" was INTERRUPTED with the coming of Messiah king after 69 weeks!!

Yeah, "end of the ages" is Christ revealing Himself --- and Him being received! NO nullifying! He hasn't yet put away the sin of Israel! Not till He comes again!

No problem "futurizing" this! Just place the fig tree where it belongs -- in 1948!

Millennium after what?? "Description of the first era as well as ours." So HOW do you say it happened then rather than now?? He's starting to sound "whiney" and self-serving.

He's getting very nervous and doubtful 2/3's of the way through.

"I don't get any more money if it sells 1 than if it sells 10." Oh, that's a great disclaimer! How much does he make just to mention those authors????

BTW, Tommy Ice ISN'T on your side, Gary!

Grasshopper -- how do you swallow this trash?? He can't even exegete Rom 8:35 rightly! He doesn't deal AT ALL with Revelations 6-16!!

NONE of "these events were taking place in the first century," Gary!!

"Almost everything you know about American history is wrong?" Gh -- this is "conspiracy theory," pure and simple!!! I bet you loved Mel Gibson in "Conspiracy Theory," eh?

skypair