freeatlast
New Member
Again you totally twist scripture to promote a false doctrine. Every believer no matter what will be part of the bride. There is no partial rapture.
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Partial Rapture
- Thread starter freeatlast
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Again you totally twist scripture to promote a false doctrine. Every believer no matter what will be part of the bride. There is no partial rapture.
The Luke passage doesn’t “say”, get saved and you will be worthy. It says, “Watch and pray, that you are accounted worthy.” You can tell me you “think it means” anything you want, but be careful of your wording. And again, I tend to believe the wording that is supplied to us by scripture. That’s a safer bet, I bet.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
In the Luke passage the rapture is not in view. In fact there is no indication that the church is in view at all. This seems to be imposed or assumed with little evidence. The passage is addressing the tribulation period not the time just prior to the rapture.
And while you have focused on the KJV wording let's look at some other versions:
Luk 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." ESV
Luk 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ASV
Your focus on the phrase "that ye may be accounted worthy"KJV is misplaced in our time.
It's not the elite, its the obedient. And it has nothing to do with works, or how "good" we are, but the fellowship we have or do not have with our BrideGroom. The Lord calls all his "espoused" to obedience and into fellowship. There should be no one left behind, but there will be. That being said,,,
I didn't start this thread, I just found it. So, unless anyone has any more questions, comments or criticisms, I believe that would just about wrap up my participation. My closing thoughts,,,
Matthew 6:9-15
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Most Christians overlook the following two verses. (Probably for the obvious reasons.)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Can't be talking about salvation, the subject is prayer to The Father. Only a child of God can voice that. I believe the scripture teaches that's a done deal, and a child of God can not be "unborn". Forgiveness of trespasses will become an issue in “the day”. (And I forgive you for the "satanic" comment. I'll not have The Father holding that against me, against that day.)
Grace, Mercy, and Peace be multiplied to you and yours, and to all. May you all keep yourselves safe in God's Will.
So how much works does a "Christian' need to accomplish to be counted faithful and "worthy" in the view of partial rapturists.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
There is no division here of believers and unfaithful believers. It is an all encompassing passage of all believers. And in fact no where in scripture does the resurrection of Saints ever have a division.
There is no division here of believers and unfaithful believers. It is an all encompassing passage of all believers. And in fact no where in scripture does the resurrection of Saints ever have a division.
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
So how is it, under the partial rapture view, that "Christians" who have been unfaithful and are not worthy to go in the initial rapture become worthy to enter heaven?
The unfaithful have committed adultery against their BrideGroom, and will not be gathered by him as his Bride. But all believers have the "unction" of the Holy Spirit from the baptism into the family of God, they just have not "remained in Christ" (from baptism), or "continued in (his) grace" during their physical life or walk. But no child (born again of The Spirit) of God will be sanctioned from the Kingdom.
None of us are "worthy" of salvation. We are kept by the promise of God for our belief.
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
In the Luke passage the rapture is not in view. In fact there is no indication that the church is in view at all. This seems to be imposed or assumed with little evidence. The passage is addressing the tribulation period not the time just prior to the rapture.
And while you have focused on the KJV wording let's look at some other versions:
Luk 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." ESV
Luk 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ASV
Your focus on the phrase "that ye may be accounted worthy"KJV is misplaced in our time.
In Luke chapter 21, Jesus had just concluded a detailed description of the great tribulation. Verse 35 defines that "it" will come upon the entire world, (the only thing in history that will) and verse 36 deals with "an escape of all these things". "All these things" would include everything, from the beginning, therefore the escape would naturally occure at that time. The "escape" is the Rapture (as we call it, yes) from all these things, the great tribulation.
And the other versions you mentioned are not translations, but paraphrases. Technically, so is the KJV, but it is closer to accurate. There is no means by which to translate word for word from any known language to another. All of the word usage and sentence structure make that impossible.
But in all modern versions, there are obvious additions and omissions, and that confusses the meaning, even in the NKJV.
But in the versions you site, they still record accurately the subject matter is "escape all these things". That would take one to the beginning of "all these things" in order to escape them all. That would define (what many call) The Rapture, no matter what one wanted to call it.
freeatlast
New Member
The unfaithful have committed adultery against their BrideGroom, and will not be gathered by him as his Bride. But all believers have the "unction" of the Holy Spirit from the baptism into the family of God, they just have not "remained in Christ" (from baptism), or "continued in (his) grace" during their physical life or walk. But no child (born again of The Spirit) of God will be sanctioned from the Kingdom.
None of us are "worthy" of salvation. We are kept by the promise of God for our belief.
tell us how what you call the unfaithful have committed adultery. What exactly have they done?
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
So how much works does a "Christian' need to accomplish to be counted faithful and "worthy" in the view of partial rapturists.
Yeah, I get that a lot.
Brideship has nothing to do with works. Works or "deeds" are a byproduct of faithfulness. Loyality. Willfull, loving service, (with the emphesis on "willfull" and "loving", not service). We are "accounted worthy" (the scriptures description, not mine) from the heart. Good works will get you nothing by the measure of God. Many Christians are going to find that out far too late.
No one can accomplish any genuine "works" that can be attributed to making us "accounted worthy" of the said calling without true faithfullness. (None of us are worthy of anything from God) It takes fellowship (not just a relationship) which in turn is accomplished through a proper walk with God. (In The Spirit.)
All believers possess the indwelling, (have the Spirit of God living within their heart and life.) But few Christians actually "walk in the Spirit", or are "in Christ".
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
tell us how what you call the unfaithful have committed adultery. What exactly have they done?
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
I don't know how many genuine "differences of doctrines" there are in the world today, but however many there are, only a handful can even resemble the truth. And only one can be close, even if there is one. The mass majority are at best, honest misinterpretations. And even that is not actually honest, because we all have the Spirit to guide us, for only the asking. And at worst, many are deliberate manipulations to prove their own point and be right.
Revelation 2:4
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
(Turned from the BrideGroom to the world?)
Luke 21:34
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt "not watch", I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have "not" defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
(The lost do not have garments to defile.)
Galatians 5:16
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Most of the Church lives outside God's will for their lives. They live for the moment inside this present world, and are tied to it. They are not anticipating the return of the BrideGroom, (their BrideGroom) and therefore are not prepared. (If they were brutally honest, they are not even looking forward to it, but are wishing and willing to postpone our future life in the Spiritual for the physical they now lust after.)
After all I have studied over the many years, I sincerely believe each true child of God knows their own heart, and knows if they are right with God whether they will admit it or not.
I was not right with God at one point (okay, two points) in the past. I knew it, even in denial. [God (hands toward heaven, faced bowed to the ground) I hated that.]
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freeatlast
New Member
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
I don't know how many genuine "differences of doctrines" there are in the world today, but however many there are, only a handful can even resemble the truth. And only one can be close, even if there is one. The mass majority are at best, honest misinterpretations. And even that is not actually honest, because we all have the Spirit to guide us, for only the asking. And at worst, many are deliberate manipulations to prove their own point and be right.
Revelation 2:4
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
(Turned from the BrideGroom to the world?)
Luke 21:34
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt "not watch", I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have "not" defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
(The lost do not have garments to defile.)
Galatians 5:16
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Most of the Church lives outside God's will for their lives. They live for the moment inside this present world, and are tied to it. They are not anticipating the return of the BrideGroom, (their BrideGroom) and therefore are not prepared. (If they were brutally honest, they are not even looking forward to it, but are wishing and willing to postpone our future life in the Spiritual for the physical they now lust after.)
After all I have studied over the many years, I sincerely believe each true child of God knows their own heart, and knows if they are right with God whether they will admit it or not.
I was not right with God at one point (okay, two points) in the past. I knew it, even in denial. [God (hands toward heaven, faced bowed to the ground) I hated that.]
Nice passages. But what does one have to do to get booted from being part of the bride?
In Luke chapter 21, Jesus had just concluded a detailed description of the great tribulation. Verse 35 defines that "it" will come upon the entire world, (the only thing in history that will) and verse 36 deals with "an escape of all these things". "All these things" would include everything, from the beginning, therefore the escape would naturally occure at that time. The "escape" is the Rapture (as we call it, yes) from all these things, the great tribulation.
And the other versions you mentioned are not translations, but paraphrases. Technically, so is the KJV, but it is closer to accurate. There is no means by which to translate word for word from any known language to another. All of the word usage and sentence structure make that impossible.
But in all modern versions, there are obvious additions and omissions, and that confusses the meaning, even in the NKJV.
But in the versions you site, they still record accurately the subject matter is "escape all these things". That would take one to the beginning of "all these things" in order to escape them all. That would define (what many call) The Rapture, no matter what one wanted to call it.
Sorry but the ESV is not a paraphrase. I see the the KJV suits your doctrinal needs well but it fails to prove your point. Again neither the church nor the rapture are in view in this passage.
Yeah, I get that a lot.
Brideship has nothing to do with works. Works or "deeds" are a byproduct of faithfulness. Loyality. Willfull, loving service, (with the emphesis on "willfull" and "loving", not service). We are "accounted worthy"
More appropriately:
"hat you may have strength to escape all these things "
No one can accomplish any genuine "works" that can be attributed to making us "accounted worthy" of the said calling without true faithfullness. (None of us are worthy of anything from God) It takes fellowship (not just a relationship) which in turn is accomplished through a proper walk with God. (In The Spirit.)
All believers possess the indwelling, (have the Spirit of God living within their heart and life.) But few Christians actually "walk in the Spirit", or are "in Christ".
So how much works does one need in their life to have a proper walk with God?
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
Nice passages. But what does one have to do to get booted from being part of the bride?
Sorry. I thought the scriptures given were clear and self explanatory. Forgive me for trying to point them out to you.
Like I said. I believe each and every believer knows whether or not they are right with the Father through The Spirit (in regards to this physical world) thereby keeping themselves in fellowship with their BrideGroom and prepared to be gathered by him in that day.
(One can not do that by looking for/toward the things of this world in the stead of the next.)
All the do's and don'ts (a mere few I have noted) are clearly detailed in The Word. Most Christians understand what disobedience is, even when they believe themselves not in violation of any offenses. The greatest of them is lack of fellowship. All that was mentioned plays against that fellowship, hindering it.
If one has ever been in fellowship, the same knows when they are lacking in it and should be yearning to will themselves back into the presence. He is in us continually, but we should be wanting the same in him everyday, looking forward to the redemption of our bodies.
Most believers are not finished with this present world and are clinging desperately and selfishly to it. The Lord warned against such behavior, did he not? (I think that one is in the post.)
Colossians 4:12-15
12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him record, that he hath a great zeal for you, and them that are in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis. 14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. 15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
Philemon 23-24
23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus; 24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
2 Timothy 4:9-10
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
Whether Demas redeemed himself in the Lord, by Paul's own admission he nevertheless at that time was willfully out of fellowship with the Lord. If every believer is honest, they have themselves or witnessed another brother or sister drawing back from the presence of the Lord in their life to spend time "enjoying the pleasures of the physical".
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
Sorry but the ESV is not a paraphrase. I see the the KJV suits your doctrinal needs well but it fails to prove your point. Again neither the church nor the rapture are in view in this passage.
It claims not to be. But the ESV leaves out vital componants of the original text. As do all modern "versions" today. The KJV is not perfect by any means, but it is the closest to being honest with the text in that day.
One problem is being 400 years removed, with word usuage change. But access to the original definitions clear up most of the confusion. Context and content (and the Holy Spirit) fixes the rest.
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RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
So how much works does one need in their life to have a proper walk with God?
I thought that post said "works" and "deeds" had nothing to do with it. So I've already answered that question.
(And the ice is building up outside and I have to get home.)
Thank you. Grace, Mercy, and Peace be multiplied unto all. May you keep yourselves safe in God's Will.
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It claims not to be. But the ESV leaves out vital componants of the original text. As do all modern "versions" today. The KJV is not perfect by any means, but it is the closest to being honest with the text in that day.
One problem is being 400 years removed, with word usuage change. But access to the original definitions clear up most of the confusion. Context and content (and the Holy Spirit) fixes the rest.
I see, you are one of the KJV only folks. Such ideas discredit any argument you can make. And the ESV is not a paraphrase no matter how you add it up and is most likely a truer version than the KJV as it is a word for word and expresses scripture in modern terms. Take care.
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freeatlast
New Member
Sorry. I thought the scriptures given were clear and self explanatory. Forgive me for trying to point them out to you.
Like I said. I believe each and every believer knows whether or not they are right with the Father through The Spirit (in regards to this physical world) thereby keeping themselves in fellowship with their BrideGroom and prepared to be gathered by him in that day.
(One can not do that by looking for/toward the things of this world in the stead of the next.)
All the do's and don'ts (a mere few I have noted) are clearly detailed in The Word. Most Christians understand what disobedience is, even when they believe themselves not in violation of any offenses. The greatest of them is lack of fellowship. All that was mentioned plays against that fellowship, hindering it.
If one has ever been in fellowship, the same knows when they are lacking in it and should be yearning to will themselves back into the presence. He is in us continually, but we should be wanting the same in him everyday, looking forward to the redemption of our bodies.
Most believers are not finished with this present world and are clinging desperately and selfishly to it. The Lord warned against such behavior, did he not? (I think that one is in the post.)
Colossians 4:12-15
12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him record, that he hath a great zeal for you, and them that are in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis. 14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. 15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
Philemon 23-24
23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus; 24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
2 Timothy 4:9-10
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
Whether Demas redeemed himself in the Lord, by Paul's own admission he nevertheless at that time was willfully out of fellowship with the Lord. If every believer is honest, they have themselves or witnessed another brother or sister drawing back from the presence of the Lord in their life to spend time "enjoying the pleasures of the physical".
Very good then we agree. You are talking about Christians and all Christians will be at the wedding and there will be no partial rapture :thumbsup:
.
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
I see, you are one of the KJV only folks. Such ideas discredit any argument you can make. And the ESV is not a paraphrase no matter how you add it up and is most likely a truer version than the KJV as it is a word for word and expresses scripture in modern terms. Take care.
No, I am not a "KJV only folk". I am a get to the truth, the original meaning folk. The KJV is simply the easiest way to do that. I wont go into that here, but when I first became exposed to other versions in my teens, it was obvious they contained slight additions and omissions that result in the base meaning being altered. I am just being honest with the text. The translators of the KJ made a few slight "unfortunate" translations, and the original type set made two genuine errors. But as I said, they are correctable.
Am I am not to be trusted because I use what is easiest for me to understand? Because I simply use what I am familiar with?
And there is no such thing as a word for word translation from one language to another. The sentence structure, (and inferred meaning within Hebrew and Greek) will not allow it.
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
Very good then we agree. You are talking about Christians and all Christians will be at the wedding and there will be no partial rapture :thumbsup:
.
Very, VERY good, on the half shell. Yes, all Christians will be at the wedding. But no, regrettably, all Christians will not be included in the wedding as Bride to Jesus.
The souls under the altar of Rev. 6, are seen resurrected and before the throne in Rev. 7. Most of them entered the great tribulation saved but unprepared for the gathering. They will be joined under the altar by those that accept Jesus as Savior during the great tribulation. Both sets of saints (tribulation saints) will be guests at the wedding. They will also make up the company that returns to earth with Jesus at his Glorious Appearing to the world. And they are identified specifically as the ones who will "live and reign" with Christ 1,000 years.
freeatlast
New Member
Your twisting scripture again. Those are all tribulation saints who get saved after the rapture. There is no partial rapture.
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