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Passages that you have wrestled (or struggled) with in your Christian life

Piper 2

Member
The original post was closed for good reasons.

What is a passage that you have wrestled with?

As a young Christion, I really struggled with Hebrews 6:1-6, on whether someone could lose their salvation. I came to see that people cannot lose their salvation, although I was in the Church of Christ for a few years and was taught you could.

In my middle years, Romans 9 and whether it taught individual election. I believe it does.

In my last few years, I have wrestled with and fought with 1 John 2:2.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

After reading John Owen, I have come to a place where I agree with his view of particular atonement, but still wrestle with this particular verse. Owen explained it well in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ. It's too long of an argument to post here, but in my case, it was decisive.

Anyway, what passages have you wrestled with?
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
"Wrestled with" OK.

[1] Lot offering his daughters to be raped. That coupled with Peter in the New Testament calling Lot a righteous man.

I wrestled for YEARS with that. The older I got and the more I read the word, the less I wrestled. But I still wrestle a little bit.
 

Blank

Active Member
Acts 17:1-2 ESV
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. [2] And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

It befuddled me why Paul would spend so much time (repeatedly), if certain ones are of the 'elect' or predestined, but I had to come to the realization God uses means and in this case Paul's reasoning (out of the Scriptures) with the Jews for 3 Sabbath days (two weeks).
 

Tenchi

Active Member
The original post was closed for good reasons.

What is a passage that you have wrestled with?

As a young Christion, I really struggled with Hebrews 6:1-6, on whether someone could lose their salvation. I came to see that people cannot lose their salvation, although I was in the Church of Christ for a few years and was taught you could.

In my middle years, Romans 9 and whether it taught individual election. I believe it does.

In my last few years, I have wrestled with and fought with 1 John 2:2.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

After reading John Owen, I have come to a place where I agree with his view of particular atonement, but still wrestle with this particular verse. Owen explained it well in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ. It's too long of an argument to post here, but in my case, it was decisive.

Anyway, what passages have you wrestled with?

There are so many...

In my youth, Romans 6 gave me much confusion, especially everything before verse 13. My adolescent feelings and experience did not bear out what Paul had written in the first half of the chapter, though I knew I was a born-again child of God. Learning to "walk by faith, not by sight," to trust God's word over what my feelings and experience were telling me was true, was a real brain-bender, at first.

I don't know that I "wrestle" with understanding any particular passage or verse now. Mostly the wrestling happens in the application of God's word to ever-wider and deeper spheres of my life.
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh so many...
One verse? I've got one phrase that I've wrestled with from my earliest memories as a believer!

...because of the angels.

...found in 1 Corinthians 11:10
"Therefore the woman should have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels".

I've read many, many commentaries and I'm still bewildered by it.

Rob
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Pretty much everything in "Revelation" ... although I don't know if "wrestle with" is the correct term to describe "shrug in confusion and move on". ;)
 

Wesley Briggman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
[Mat 19:19 KJV] 19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Such a significant command, yet the application eludes me.

Firstly, how is self-love described?

Secondly, all the analysis I have read boils down to: "Don't be a jerk!".
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thou shall not….covet, steal, kill…etc

Love thy neighbor as thy self

Go out and preach the gospel to the lost (not like a cheap salesman I ain’t a gonna!)

Now, do unto others I like, practice & live by…example, I hate absolutely hate someone proselytizing to me so I don’t do it to others knowing it’s an extreme annoyance to most. If you live your life actually showing empathy & kindness & compassion to others then emulation of those qualities should be enough. Besides the HS regenerates & converts…let him do his job.
 
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Tenchi

Active Member
[Mat 19:19 KJV] 19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Such a significant command, yet the application eludes me.

Firstly, how is self-love described?

Secondly, all the analysis I have read boils down to: "Don't be a jerk!".

I think of this verse in the light of what Paul wrote to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 5:29
29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it...


Even the most self-loathing people I've met (I used to be one of these), feed, rest, bathe, clothe, shelter and protect themselves. Even though they appear not to love themselves, they take pains to nurture themselves in various ways, avoiding serious pain, pursuing comfort and pleasure as they're able, and seeking out the consolation and affirmation of others. In my case, though I loathed myself, really, that loathing was a testament to my inordinate ego and self-centeredness. Until God brought me into the truth of death to Self (Ga. 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Col. 2:9-13; 3:1-3; Ro. 6:1-11; 12:1, etc.) I couldn't see just how much, despite my apparent hatred of myself, I was in bondage to the old Self.

My apologies if you'd rather I had commented on your post. It's just, given my own past, and my work with youth within the Church, this matter of Matthew 19:19 has been of particular interest to me.
 

RootBeer

New Member
There's parts I wrestle with because I don't understand them. I like to think that with more study, I'll understand more.

Then there's part I wrestle with because my sinful human nature rebels against them.

The parable of the wicked servant is a wonderful parable. But the way it constantly forces me extend grace to people who clearly don't deserve (when of course I do!) is something I wrestle with daily.
 

Wesley Briggman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
(Mat 7:6 KJV) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

How do I identify dogs and swine?
 

Blank

Active Member
"Wrestled with" OK.

[1] Lot offering his daughters to be raped. That coupled with Peter in the New Testament calling Lot a righteous man.

I wrestled for YEARS with that. The older I got and the more I read the word, the less I wrestled. But I still wrestle a little bit.
Perhaps Peter is talking in terms of imputed righteousness?
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Matthew Chapter 26

39​

And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Was He asking to circumvent the cross?
 

Hazelelponi

Member
(Mat 7:6 KJV) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

How do I identify dogs and swine?


turning rn to the words of our Lord in Matthew 7:6. I'm reminded that Jesus, in His infinite wisdom, offers counsel here that, while often overlooked, speaks profoundly to the nature of our witness, the stewardship of the gospel, and the boundaries of our engagement with the world.


The words "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine" are not merely a call for caution; they are an instruction for discernment. In a world filled with the restless noise of rebellion and the desolate cries of sin, we are reminded that our message, our lives, and the gospel truths are precious. It is of utmost importance that we, as faithful stewards of the mysteries of God, handle what is holy with due reverence and wisdom.


Let's dive deeper into the meaning of this passage, leaning on the rich theological heritage of the Church and the clear teaching of Scripture, so that we might be equipped to discern "dogs and swine" and exercise wisdom in our dealings with them.


1. Contextualizing the Words of Christ: A Call for Discerning Witness

Before we plunge into the identity of these "dogs" and "swine," we must first understand the broader context of Matthew 7:6. In the previous verses, Christ teaches about the need for discernment in judgment (Matt. 7:1-5), the importance of prayer (Matt. 7:7-11), and the narrow gate that leads to life (Matt. 7:13-14). These teachings, set in the Sermon on the Mount, concern the nature of true righteousness—a righteousness that is not of the external law but of the heart, a righteousness wrought by grace.

This makes Matthew 7:6 all the more striking. Jesus is not only warning us about external conduct but about the stewardship of the gospel itself. The "holy" and "pearls" are metaphors for the precious truths of the Kingdom, the sacred message of the gospel, the very wisdom of God that has been revealed to His people.

To cast these pearls before swine or give what is holy to dogs is a violation of our duty to honor God's truth and a failure to properly discern those who are fit to hear it. This passage calls for us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves (Matt. 10:16), recognizing that there are those who will trample underfoot what we hold dear, and in doing so, we expose ourselves and others to greater harm.


2. The Identity of the "Dogs" and "Swine": Who Are They?

To identify the "dogs" and "swine" of Matthew 7:6, we must turn to the Scriptures and their cultural and linguistic context. The language of "dogs" and "swine" is not arbitrary; it is deeply rooted in the Old Testament and the cultural understanding of both the Jewish people and the broader ancient world.

  • Dogs: In the ancient world, particularly in the Hebrew context, dogs were not domesticated pets as we think of them today. They were scavengers, unclean animals that roamed the streets, devouring refuse. The term "dog" in the Bible is used metaphorically to describe those who are outside the covenant, those who live in open defiance to God's law, and those who are hostile to His people. In Philippians 3:2, Paul uses the term to refer to false teachers—those who seek to distort the gospel and lead God's people astray. Dogs represent the unclean, the rebellious, the spiritually dead.
  • Swine: Similarly, pigs were ceremonially unclean in Jewish law (Leviticus 11:7). The swine is a symbol of defilement, of those who are enslaved to their appetites and who scorn the holiness of God. Jesus Himself used swine in Matthew 8:31-32 to describe the demonic possession of the Gadarene man, underscoring the connection between swine and evil forces. Swine represent the spiritually unclean, the untouchable, and those who are in bondage to sin, unable or unwilling to receive the purity of the gospel.
In the broader sense, dogs and swine represent those who reject the gospel with a hardened heart. They are not merely ignorant; they are hostile to the truth, and they will inevitably respond with disdain, trampling upon the pearls of wisdom that we offer. These are those who mock and scorn the holy things of God, who have neither understanding nor humility to receive the grace we extend.


3. How Do We Identify These "Dogs" and "Swine"?


Now, the question remains: How do we identify these individuals in our day, particularly in a context where the lines between the sacred and the profane are often blurred? Here are a few thoughts on discerning those to whom we should not freely give the pearls of the gospel.

  1. A Life of Open Defiance and Rebellion Against God
    Those who persistently live in rebellion to God’s commandments, despite clear teaching and loving correction, fall into this category. We are not to engage in fruitless debates with those who mock God, reject His sovereignty, and blaspheme His name. 1 Corinthians 1:18 tells us that the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing. There is a point where our efforts to reason with them become futile.
  2. Hostility to the Gospel
    Those who actively persecute the truth or attempt to silence the gospel fall under the category of “dogs” and “swine.” The false teachers who distort the gospel for selfish gain, leading others astray, are prime examples of this. Jesus warned us that false prophets would come in sheep’s clothing (Matt. 7:15), and the apostle Paul similarly cautioned against those who “dispute over foolish and ignorant speculations” (2 Timothy 2:23).
  3. Hardness of Heart
    There are some whose hearts are so hardened that no matter how lovingly or faithfully we preach the gospel, they will refuse to hear. Matthew 13:15 describes such hearts as calloused, incapable of receiving the truth. These individuals are often trapped in their sin, and the Spirit may be calling us to cease our efforts for the time being—to not cast pearls before those who will trample them underfoot.
  4. The Unrepentant and Unwilling to Be Reconciled
    Scripture makes clear that repentance is key to salvation. When a person rejects repentance, preferring sin to salvation, they are in danger of being numbered among the dogs and swine. Jesus taught His disciples to shake the dust off their feet and move on when their message is rejected (Matt. 10:14). There comes a time when further engagement is not only unfruitful but spiritually dangerous.

4. Wisdom: How to Care for the Souls of Others


As believers we are tasked with dispensing the gospel faithfully and with wisdom. To offer the gospel to those who reject it is a task requiring discernment. But let us not misunderstand: This teaching is not a call to judgmental isolation or exclusivity. We are not to treat the lost with contempt. We must still love, pray for, and seek to engage with those who are far from Christ. Yet, we are called to be discerning stewards of the gospel.

To cast pearls before swine is to squander the precious truths of God’s Word on those who refuse to hear, diminishing the sacred value of the message. Instead, let us focus on those whom God is drawing to Himself—those who are humble in heart, those whose hearts are tender and open to hearing the Word of life.


Conclusion


Matthew 7:6 calls us to balance courageous witness with holy discernment. The pearls of the gospel are too precious to be given to those who will trample them underfoot. Let us therefore exercise wisdom, and with the mind of Christ, discern when to speak and when to remain silent, knowing that our ultimate goal is not to condemn but to faithfully proclaim Christ and guard the sacred trust we have been given.

May God give us grace to be faithful in our calling, wise in our approach, and always grounded in love, as we seek to fulfill the Great Commission in these dark times.

In Christ’s name, Amen.

I simply try and avoid talking to people that treat God's revealed word with utter contempt, and/or treat God's people with the same contempt.
 
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atpollard

Well-Known Member
turning rn to the words of our Lord in Matthew 7:6. I'm reminded that Jesus, in His infinite wisdom, offers counsel here that, while often overlooked, speaks profoundly to the nature of our witness, the stewardship of the gospel, and the boundaries of our engagement with the world.


The words "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine" are not merely a call for caution; they are an instruction for discernment. In a world filled with the restless noise of rebellion and the desolate cries of sin, we are reminded that our message, our lives, and the gospel truths are precious. It is of utmost importance that we, as faithful stewards of the mysteries of God, handle what is holy with due reverence and wisdom.


Let's dive deeper into the meaning of this passage, leaning on the rich theological heritage of the Church and the clear teaching of Scripture, so that we might be equipped to discern "dogs and swine" and exercise wisdom in our dealings with them.
I always found Jesus practical example to be helpful ...

Matthew 10:5-15 [ESV]
These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. As you enter the house, greet it. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Mark 6:7-13 [ESV]
And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff--no bread, no bag, no money in their belts-- but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics. And he said to them, "Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there. And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them." So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent. And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.

Luke 9:1-6 [ESV]
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. And he said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics. And whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. And wherever they do not receive you, when you leave that town shake off the dust from your feet as a testimony against them." And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

... so did Paul:

Acts 13:38-52 [ESV]
Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
"'Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.'"
As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.


There seems to be a message about not wasting time and effort on "dogs and pigs" that will not listen, when the fields are SO RIPE for harvest and so many are starving and WANT to hear.
 

Hazelelponi

Member
There seems to be a message about not wasting time and effort on "dogs and pigs" that will not listen, when the fields are SO RIPE for harvest and so many are starving and WANT to hear.

Amen to that!

Lots of people in the world who might like to know Jesus Christ died in their stead, taking the due penalty for their sins upon Himself in order that both the Justice and the Mercy of God might be displayed in Christ for their salvatiion.

All things to the Glory of God alone. Let's preach the Gospel of Salvation to the lost, in the hope they may become our brothers.
 
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Blank

Active Member
Matthew Chapter 26

39​

And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Was He asking to circumvent the cross?
Perhaps setting an example for us in handling praying through difficult circumstances..'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.'
 
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