"passive" in justification; "not passive" in sanctification

[Van]

I see the same mistaken views are simply being copy and pasted over and over.

Lets take adding "at any time" to Romans 3:11. In 1965, I could say, no one has landed on the moon. But in 1970, the statement is still true, provided the scope is limited to the group (mankind in 1965) is understood. So when I say no one seeks after God, but also some fallen men (Matthew 23:13) seek after God some of the time, the only way to fit the two together is to understand no one seeks God either "all the time" thus allowing for exceptions some of the time, or "when they are sinning" thus allowing for exceptions when they are not sinning.

It is pointless to discuss it, you position is untenable.

Your doctrine is mistaken as I have shown from scripture, and your interpretations add to scripture what was not intended, creating contradictions.

Natural men of flesh can understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual meat. That is what 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches.

In summary:

1) Natural men of flesh can understand some things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk but not spiritual meat.
2) No one seeks God all the time or when they are sinning, but some fallen men (Matthew 23:13) do seek God effectively some of the time.
3) The men of Matthew 23:13 were in the process of entering heaven but they did not complete the effort because they were blocked. Therefore the grace needed to be entering heaven is resistible.​

 

[robustheologian]

Argument from incredulity mixed with repeated assertion…a fallacious feast. :laugh:

 

[Darrell C]

I see the same mistaken views are simply being copy and pasted over and over.

Lets take adding "at any time" to Romans 3:11. In 1965, I could say, no one has landed on the moon. But in 1970, the statement is still true, provided the scope is limited to the group (mankind in 1965) is understood. So when I say no one seeks after God, but also some fallen men (Matthew 23:13) seek after God some of the time, the only way to fit the two together is to understand no one seeks God either "all the time" thus allowing for exceptions some of the time, or "when they are sinning" thus allowing for exceptions when they are not sinning.

It is pointless to discuss it, you position is untenable.

Your doctrine is mistaken as I have shown from scripture, and your interpretations add to scripture what was not intended, creating contradictions.

Natural men of flesh can understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual meat. That is what 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches.

In summary:

1) Natural men of flesh can understand some things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk but not spiritual meat.
2) No one seeks God all the time or when they are sinning, but some fallen men (Matthew 23:13) do seek God effectively some of the time.
3) The men of Matthew 23:13 were in the process of entering heaven but they did not complete the effort because they were blocked. Therefore the grace needed to be entering heaven is resistible.​

Let's focus on one point. Address how it is you equate the spiritual men Paul has to feed spiritual milk to ( ch.3) with the natural man Paul speaks about in ch.2.

It's a very simple point: we can't equate the two, which is what you are doing in order to make it seem that natural men are receiving milk. That they are carnal does not mean they are unregenerate.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And I will just throw this in: you contend that unregenerate men were entering Heaven based on Matthew 23:13 and we see here...


Matthew 23

King James Version (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


...the Lord commanding that men keep the Law. The question that arises when I consider this is can we not, if this is an accurate assessment (men entering Heaven by keeping the Law)...also say the Lord is teaching salvation by works?

That is the only possible conclusion.

Rather, I would suggest that the Kingdom in view is simply the temporal realm, not the Heavenly. We, you and I, are a part of the Kingdom of Heaven, though we have not entered Heaven yet.

See the distinction?

We can't possibly equate the keeping of the Law with entrance to God. That is achieved only through faith in Christ, something not one person in the Gospels, prior to Pentecost, can be seen to have.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Yet another post presenting the same off topic argument. Matthew 23:13 says unregenerate men were entering heaven. Period. For you to say they were entering heaven by leading sinless lives, and had not been made sinners is absurd. Smoke, evasion.

I equate speaking to babes in Christ as to men of flesh with speaking as to fallen unregenerate natural men. These men could understand spiritual milk but not spiritual meat.

And the idea that they were fallen is reinforced by Matthew 23:13 where men of flesh, unregenerate natural men, were entering heaven, thus seeking God effectively. Two verses both teaching some fallen men can understand and respond to spiritual milk some of the time.

 

[Darrell C]

Yet another post presenting the same off topic argument. Matthew 23:13 says unregenerate men were entering heaven. Period.

Look at it again:


Matthew 23:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


That the Pharisees are not going in has nothing to do with their dying and going to Heaven, the Lord makes it clear they are not "going in," meaning their works have not brought about that result.



Matthew 11:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.



Does this refer to entering Heaven?

Again I point out that entering the Kingdom is related to the temporal, unless we want to imagine that men were seeking to physically enter into Heaven.

For you to say they were entering heaven by leading sinless lives, and had not been made sinners is absurd. Smoke, evasion.

I'm not saying that, lol, aren't you reading the posts?

I am saying the exact opposite. I have said the opposite several times, but that has been lost because you have not responded to the points I have sought to make.


Consider:


John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Can we ignore the Lord's statement and say, "Well, people ascended to Heaven...some of the time"?

No, at no time had any man ascended into Heaven.

The reason? Because they were unregenerate and separated from God due to their sin. That does not mean God did not come into their presence after death (in Sheol/Hades). But for man to come into God's presence there had to be Atonement/Reconciliation.

So the point is still the same: you cannot make this to mean that unregenerate men were entering Heaven, they were only entering the Kingdom available to them, which is similar to the Kingdom we ourselves have been translated into. That is distinct from the entrance we receive into Heaven itself when we die or are raptured.

I equate speaking to babes in Christ as to men of flesh with speaking as to fallen unregenerate natural men.

And that is not seen in the text. They are Christians, born again believers despite the fact they acted carnally. "Carnal" simply means worldly. Paul encourages them (and the Roman believers) to share their carnal things with the preachers of God's Word:


1 Corinthians 9:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?



Romans 15:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.




It doesn't have to carry a connotation of evil, and it certainly is unrelated to being unregenerate.

These men could understand spiritual milk but not spiritual meat.

Only because they had been converted from natural men to spiritual.

And the idea that they were fallen is reinforced by Matthew 23:13

Sorry, no.

I agree that the men in view are unregenerate, it is what the Kingdom of God in view where we disagree.

And they entered into the Kingdom of God, the sphere of God's rule and reign in the hearts of men, through obedience to the Law. Relationship with God, no matter the Age, has always been a matter of obedience to revelation from God. Thus Christ commands them to obey that which even wicked men like the Pharisees in view presented. Their association with the Law did not make the Law itself either evil or incapable of bringing men into the available relationship provided men under the Law. Even Gentiles who did not have the Law enjoyed the benefits of being obedient to the Law written on their hearts.

where men of flesh, unregenerate natural men, were entering heaven, thus seeking God effectively.

The term "men of flesh" is a little deceptive for what is in view. It is a matter of being worldly, a good example being the very issue Paul raises in chapter One. Contentious over who was baptizing who. That is not a matter of being unregenerate, it's just a matter of acting like children, both in behavior as well as doctrine.

Two verses both teaching some fallen men can understand and respond to spiritual milk some of the time.

Sorry, you cannot negate the simplicity of...


1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Romans 3:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Galatians 3:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.




Okay, you're making it hard for me to leave, lol.

God bless.

 

[Van]

Yet again a long post containing copy and paste repeats of what has been addressed in the past.
1) 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say unregenerate men cannot understand all things of the Spirit of God. You added "all" but from the context i.e. 1 Cor. 3:1, the necessary interpretation is "some" of the things (spiritual meat) of the Spirit of God.

2) You seem to deny Matthew 23:13 says unregenerate men were "entering heaven" by pointing out they were blocked! LOL

3) You seem to want to justify wrongly interpreting one verse by rightly interpreting an unrelated verse. No one could mean no one at any time, or could mean no one when they are sinning, or no one all of the time. But Matthew 23:13 requires interpreting Romans 3:11 with limited scope.

4) Next you once again seek to interpret men of flesh as men with their minds set on flesh, but as you certainly know, men with their minds set on flesh cannot understand spiritual milk. That dog will not hunt.

Summary:

(a) Unregenerate men can understand some things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk, 1 Cor. 3:1.
(b) No one seeks God when sinning or all the time, so we are all under sin. This view does not contradict Matthew 23:13.
(c) Efforts to say unregenerate men were not entering heaven, thus seeking God effective are simply a denial of scripture. Doctrines based on cherry picking scripture are bogus. Biblical doctrine is consistent with all scripture.​

 

[Darrell C]

Yet again a long post containing copy and paste repeats of what has been addressed in the past.
1) 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say unregenerate men cannot understand all things of the Spirit of God. You added "all" but from the context i.e. 1 Cor. 3:1, the necessary interpretation is "some" of the things (spiritual meat) of the Spirit of God.

2) You seem to deny Matthew 23:13 says unregenerate men were "entering heaven" by pointing out they were blocked! LOL

3) You seem to want to justify wrongly interpreting one verse by rightly interpreting an unrelated verse. No one could mean no one at any time, or could mean no one when they are sinning, or no one all of the time. But Matthew 23:13 requires interpreting Romans 3:11 with limited scope.

4) Next you once again seek to interpret men of flesh as men with their minds set on flesh, but as you certainly know, men with their minds set on flesh cannot understand spiritual milk. That dog will not hunt.

Summary:

(a) Unregenerate men can understand some things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk, 1 Cor. 3:1.
(b) No one seeks God when sinning or all the time, so we are all under sin. This view does not contradict Matthew 23:13.
(c) Efforts to say unregenerate men were not entering heaven, thus seeking God effective are simply a denial of scripture. Doctrines based on cherry picking scripture are bogus. Biblical doctrine is consistent with all scripture.​

See you in the next go round, my friend.

God bless.