Passover.......

[robycop3]

I recently had a discussion on another board with a gent who's also a member here about Passover. He insists Jesus abolished Passover & the Jews are wrong for observing it, while I insist He did no such thing, as Scripture doesn't say He did; it says He added Communion as an observance.

A close reading of Exodus 12 shows God ordained Passover for Israel FOR EVER, in commemoration of God's removing them from Egypt by His power. This gent even tried to tell me that "for ever" has its limitations. WHERE? The Hebrew is clearly FOR EVER, FOR ALL TIME. Why are the Jews wrong to follow the clear command of GOD?

Also, Passover is a command for ISRAEL ALONE, since THEY ALONE are the people whom God took outta Egypt by His power, although God provides for non-Israelis to also observe it IF THEY WISH, long as they exactly follow the same rules He gave Israel.(Yes, I realize there was an assortment of Egyptians, Midianites, Ethiopians, & other non-Israelis among those God freed, but He did it all for the sake of the Israelis.)

Unfortunately for that gent, he's a KJVO and he was vainly trying to justify "Easter" in the KJV's Acts 12:4 with his argument.

Now while I don't observe Passover because I'm not an Israeli far as I know, I certainly believe the Jew is right in observing it because GOD SAID IT IS TO BE OBSERVED BY ISRAEL FOR EVER, & far as I know, "for ever" is still going on.

Other members, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject?

 

[Petrel]

I would agree. I don't think it is wrong for Jews to observe Passover, but for non-Christian Jews I don't think it is of any benefit. If I were Jewish I would observe Passover.

 

[Bunyon]

The Passover Seder is a picture of Christ. It is ok for anyone to observe it.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by robycop3:
He insists Jesus abolished Passover & the Jews are wrong for observing it

Abolished? No. Not required? Probably. I do not see how commemorating Moses and the Iraelites, or Jesus and the last supper, is in any way a bad thing.

 

[CYBERDOVE]

The jews were told to do this forever, so they are right to continue to do so. However when you become a christian you are intructed by JESUS to observe the LORD's SUPPER until HE returns.

 

[robycop3]

Right, Cyberdove...but He did NOT abolish Passover. In fact, His "last supper" was a paschal meal.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

One might even see a reason for COMBINING the two services!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Right, Cyberdove...but He did NOT abolish Passover. In fact, His "last supper" was a paschal meal.

Mistake! In fact, His "last supper" was NOT a paschal meal. Many reasons for saying so! One: How can the Passover meal be eaten the Passover lamb not slaughtered yet? Actually, it is very silly to think it was Passover meal eaten!

As a matter besides, the Jewish 'Seder' not nearly resembles the Passover (meal) of the Bible!
It is obvious for EVERYBODY. (It's not for me to say.)

Jesus Christ is called "our Passover"; He is called "the Lamb of God" - God's Passover Lamb indeed. So whoever eat of Him, enjoys God's Passover. The Jews don't no anything of God's Passover. And there is but one Passover - they certainly are not the keepers or protectors of it!
It is for Christians.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is for Christians, not meaning they must still eat the Passover meal - again, totally impossible since how can the meal be eaten it's main 'course' absent - the flesh of the sacrifice?
It is for Christians, spiritually - that is, by faith and through faith to eat, like in Colossians 2:16-17 it says,
"Do not you (the Christian Church) let anybody (of the 'world' that includes the Jews) judge (or) condemn you regarding eating and drinking of feast, in fact in regard to month's or Sabbath's feast!"
So here Paul defends the Church, feasting her Sabbaths' Feasts of Christ-Feast, "eating and drinking of "the Lord's Supper".

 

[Keith M]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robycop3:
Right, Cyberdove...but He did NOT abolish Passover. In fact, His "last supper" was a paschal meal.

Mistake! In fact, His "last supper" was NOT a paschal meal. Many reasons for saying so! One: How can the Passover meal be eaten the Passover lamb not slaughtered yet? Actually, it is very silly to think it was Passover meal eaten!</font>[/QUOTE]Jesus Christ did in fact fulfill Passover, as well as many other things in the Law. But to say "it is very silly to think it was Passover meal eaten" is non-scrptural, to say the least. Jesus himself called the meal pascha, or Passover as it is translated these days (see Matthew 26:17-19; Mark 14:14-16; and Luke 22:7-15). In fact it is very silly to think the meal was not the Passover, when Jesus Himself called it just that.

 

[HankD]

So should we Baptists use Welch's grape juice for the 5 cups of wine (Don't forget Elijah)?

HankD

 

[robycop3]

Gerhard Ebersoehn: Mistake! In fact, His "last supper" was NOT a paschal meal. Many reasons for saying so! One: How can the Passover meal be eaten the Passover lamb not slaughtered yet? Actually, it is very silly to think it was Passover meal eaten!

# Matthew 26:17
Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”
Matthew 26:18
And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”
Matthew 26:19
So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

As a matter besides, the Jewish 'Seder' not nearly resembles the Passover (meal) of the Bible!
It is obvious for EVERYBODY. (It's not for me to say.)

In Exodus 12, God gives the rules for observing the Passover and ordains it for israel FOR EVER. If someone is observing it contrary to those rules, that's between that person and GOD. I don't observe it because to my knowledge I'm not Israeli, but if I did, it would be according to God's plainly-stated rules.

Jesus Christ is called "our Passover"; He is called "the Lamb of God" - God's Passover Lamb indeed. So whoever eat of Him, enjoys God's Passover. The Jews don't no anything of God's Passover. And there is but one Passover - they certainly are not the keepers or protectors of it!
It is for Christians.

The paschal lamb was an innocent creature sacrificed to represent GOD'S TRUE LAMB, JESUS. And Jesus' last meal included the paschal lamb for His entire "household", His disciples. He ATE THE MEAL with them, instituting the Communion AS THEY WERE EATING.(Matthew 26:26)

Although the paschal lamb represented Jesus in the Passover meal, the entire observance, AS GOD STATES, was to commemorate God's removing the Israelis from Egypt by His power. And again, there's not one word from Jesus about abolishing the Passover. Paul of Eugene has an excellent suggestion, which would not be a violation of Scripture, for Israeli and gentile alike...COMBINE THE TWBSERVANCES! After all, what's what JESUS did!

 

[robycop3]

Another thing, Gerhard...In Acts 12, which occurred years after Jesus had returned to heaven, we see Passover being observed by the Jews. And there's nothing to suggest that the Jews who had become Christians had abandoned Passover.

 

[Tim]

There's nothing to indicate that Christian Jews DID celebrate the Passover either. Of course unconverted Jews continued to do so, probably many Christain Jews did so out of tradition or peer pressure. But Paul's instruction in the epistles, and the whole theme of Hebrews would indicate that the Passover is no longer merely a ceremony, but has been fulfilled in truth forever in Christ.

No one need observe it anymore because Christ brought that shadow to it's ultimate completion in Himself. That is the essence of the "new convenant" in Christ's blood. At the final ceremonial Passover, Christ held up the symbol of His blood and declared a new agreement with God's people, centered around His bringing to an end the works of the Law (of which the Passover is one). The old covenant has been overshadowed by the new.

Today, under the new covenant, we observe the Passover by trusting in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice alone, apart from any works (including Passover observance).

 

[robycop3]

Of course WE aren't bound to the Passover observance, but it's hard to ignore God's statement "for ever" in Exodus 12. While CHRIST is the Christians' Passover, His having delivered us by His power from our captivity to sin and the penalty thereof, the earthly Passover is to commemorate God's having removed Israel from Egyptian captivity by His power. This had nothing to do with either covenant except the paschal lamb represented Christ.

Today, the bread and drink of Communion represents Christ's flesh & blood. Again, this is separate from Passover and its meaning to Israel.

When did "for ever" end?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Another thing, Gerhard...In Acts 12, which occurred years after Jesus had returned to heaven, we see Passover being observed by the Jews. And there's nothing to suggest that the Jews who had become Christians had abandoned Passover.

I admit, and agree - fully!

Doesn't mean the Last Supper of Christ's was the Passover Meal.
I say it was a NEW thing, a completely Christian Institution.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Keith M,
"Jesus Christ did in fact fulfill Passover, as well as many other things in the Law. But to say "it is very silly to think it was Passover meal eaten" is non-scrptural, to say the least. Jesus himself called the meal pascha, or Passover as it is translated these days (see Matthew 26:17-19; Mark 14:14-16; and Luke 22:7-15). In fact it is very silly to think the meal was not the Passover, when Jesus Himself called it just that."

First statement, "Jesus Christ did in fact fulfill Passover, as well as many other things in the Law."
Absolutely!

Second statement:
"But to say "it is very silly to think it was Passover meal eaten" is non-scrptural, to say the least."
I meant the Last-Supper incidence was not the Passover Meal eaten, but the New Institution called by the New Name, "The Lord's Supper". Two things; different things. Absolutely Scriptural!

Third statement:
"Jesus himself called the meal pascha, or Passover as it is translated these days".
With certain reservations, accepted!

But as for specifics - refer the texts you mention - each must be understood individually and in context. Generalities do not apply where - note - Jesus gives instructions to "prepare FOR, the Passover" (experience of Christ) of and on the pending day that only then had started, Nisan 14.

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Of course WE aren't bound to the Passover observance, but it's hard to ignore God's statement "for ever" in Exodus 12. While CHRIST is the Christians' Passover, His having delivered us by His power from our captivity to sin and the penalty thereof, the earthly Passover is to commemorate God's having removed Israel from Egyptian captivity by His power. This had nothing to do with either covenant except the paschal lamb represented Christ.

Today, the bread and drink of Communion represents Christ's flesh & blood. Again, this is separate from Passover and its meaning to Israel.

When did "for ever" end?

For ever never ends, but the ceremony has become obsolete. We keep it in Christ--in the same way we keep all the Law in Him. Hebrews 8-10 deals with this concept in detail.

While the specific reference of the Passover to Israel was deliverance from Egypt to become a nation of God's chosen people, that is simply a type of our spiritual deliverance from the power of sin and Satan to become a new chosen people of God through our Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.

No feast or ceremony of the old covenant was unaffected when the new covenant eclipsed the old. The spiritual reality in Christ replaces the old physical shadow observances.

 

[robycop3]

One of Jesus' last acts before he was arrested was to observe the paschal meal. He arose in the midst of Passover Week.

And how can something God ordained "for ever" become obsolete? God knew what Jesus was gonna do long before He ordained Passover, but He still said "for ever". While Jesus added Communion, HE DID *NOT* ABOLISH PASSOVER!

 

[DeeJay]

Jesus Christ is called "our Passover"; He is called "the Lamb of God" - God's Passover Lamb indeed. So whoever eat of Him, enjoys God's Passover.

And how can something God ordained "for ever" become obsolete? God knew what Jesus was gonna do long before He ordained Passover, but He still said "for ever". While Jesus added Communion, HE DID *NOT* ABOLISH PASSOVER!

I believe Passover and Communion are the same ordenance. We just understand it better now and rename it. Passover reprisented what Jesus fulfilled. Both Passover and Communion/Lords supper celebrate Gods salvation. When I take the Lords Supper I think of it as a Passover feast, it reprisents Gods salvation to bring me out to the world by painting the Blood of The Lamb on me.

I also think the reasons for the Passover and the Lords supper are the same. One for remeberance:

And Moses said to the people:
“Remember this day in which you went out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out of this place.
Exodus 13:3

but also-

And it shall be, when your children say to you, ‘What do you mean by this service?’ 27 that you shall say , ‘It is the Passover sacrifice of the LORD, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when He struck the Egyptians and delivered our households.’ So the people bowed their heads and worshiped.
Exodus 12:25-28

And you shall tell your son in that day, saying, ‘ This is done because of what the LORD did for me when I came up from Egypt.
Exodus 13:8

The Lords supper makes our children ask questions. We should use the oppertunity to explain what it is we are remembering and how the Lord saved us by the Blood of the Lamb.