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Pastor tells congregation to, "Love it or leave it!"

Baptist Believer

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Federal & Winchester 9mm/100 rds, 17 bucks. Didn’t need ammo, but don’t want to cut into the stash. They only had a couple of rifles, but plenty of 22 ammo, bricks, buckets, boxes, so that was good.
Not too bad. Last time I bought there, I paid $14.99 for 100 rounds of 9mm. I'm hoping to head out to the range next week and the only 9mm I have is hollow-point -- way too expensive to waste at the range.
 

Reformed

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Friends, I am a political conservative, ideologically speaking. I oppose the Social Justice Movement in society as well as in the church. I am an unapologetic capitalist, believing that the free market is the only way to achieve economic prosperity for all socioeconomic classes. I am also an intolerant bigot (according to the opinion of the prevalent culture); opposing the culture of death in society (abortion and mistreatment of the elderly) as well as the sodomite social agenda that threatens the souls of our children and their posterity. However, I refuse to cast my lot in with any political party or movement that ignores the warning not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14-18). We are told not to participate in "the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them" (Ephesians 5:11). It is obvious that many of you disagree with me. Can we disagree without disparaging one another?
 

Revmitchell

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You are quite good at claiming things true or false, but very poor at actually explaining why.

Why is my statement a fallacy? Why do you consider it not black and white?

Whooo you have made all kinds of claims without a single stitch of evidence. You simply spew your opinion. However to answer your question I consider your statement a black and white fallacy because there are more than two options.
 

Revmitchell

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Enlighten me: What are the other options?

Just because one has spoken of the country doesn't mean that they hold it above the Kingdom or the gospel. I don't happen to think what he did was smart. It just unnecessarily brings on controversy that is not helpful but the idea you have to speak to one or the other lest you be guilty of loving one above the other is absurd. It comes across as searching for a criticism and anything will do.
 

Reynolds

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That's an extremely subjective standard. I happen to think our current President is undermining most of the American principles laid down by our Founding Fathers and destroying the hard bi-partisan work of many generations. I think our previous President also did some damage by setting the precedent of using Executive Orders to accomplish things he could not do through Congress.

So if you support our current President, I think the shoe is on the other foot and you should be the one leaving this country. But that would be a totalitarian attitude which violates our foundational and sacred American principles, so I don't have that attitude. But you and the President need to stop it. Don't hate America.
I definitely support our President and I have no desire to compromise with the devil's in the other party. They hate Trump because he is a nationalist, but mostly because he will stack the court and end abortion. I have no desire to work with any person who wants to murder babies. Have you read the DNC platform? Why would you want to work with any of those perverts?
The party platform is perverted.
 
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Baptist Believer

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Just because one has spoken of the country doesn't mean that they hold it above the Kingdom or the gospel.
When I was a pastor of a church, I found it difficult to build relationships with unbelievers since they tended to hold me at arms length because they assumed I would stand in judgment of their fallen situation. Now that I am not officially a pastor, I have many relationships with unbelievers and have had the privilege of seeing a number of them come to faith in Jesus. However, since the Trump campaign began in earnest in 2015 and prominent Christian leaders, especially Robert Jeffress at First Baptist Church Dallas (about 40 miles to the east of Fort Worth), jumped on the Trump train and blasted other Christians for not doing the same, I encounter difficulty sharing the gospel because too many unchurched people think I am trying to change their minds politically. They keep bringing up the latest Trump tweet or something that Franklin Graham has said about Trump and confuse that with the message of Jesus.

I have had more than a few new Christians ask me at church whether or not they can disagree with the President, since most of their other Christian friends seem to revel in the name-calling and bad behavior of the President toward "the liberals" (as many like to call non-Trump supporters). I have to point them to what Jesus taught in the gospels. But then they ask why some people loudly and proudly claim to be Christians, but they support things in the President and Republican Party that are literally antichrist.

So I am quite sensitive (as both a historic Baptist and a careful evangelist) to any mixing of of partisan politics with the message of the gospel of Jesus. The church must not send a mixed message. Putting purely political messages on a church's sign as their message to their community is an idolatrous pollution of the Kingdom of God with the kingdoms of the world that Jesus will one day judge.

I don't happen to think what he did was smart.
I understand that and you get credit in my book for recognizing it. But it is worse than not being smart.

...but the idea you have to speak to one or the other lest you be guilty of loving one above the other is absurd.
As an individual, I agree. But putting it on the official sign and messaging to the community is not absurb. It moves it into black and white territory.

It comes across as searching for a criticism and anything will do.
You don't know me very well at all. I have better things to do than to critique the content of this site. However, this is a fundamental issue of the gospel, so it is worth a few minutes of analysis.
 

Baptist Believer

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Have you read the DNC platform? Why would you want to work with any of those perverts?
The party platform is perverted.
I've stated this many times before, but I state it again. I am a third-generation Republican who was a Republican in the South when it was a dirty word. I still hold the same principles I have held back when I voted for Ronald Reagan. The Republican Party is the one that has changed and I no longer identify as a Republican since the current crop of Republicans have rejected almost all of their historic values. But that doesn't make me a Democrat, it makes me an independent since there is currently no party that represents my views. However, I will not support Donald Trump in his re-election bid because of my Christian convictions.
 

Reformed

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Have you read the DNC platform? Why would you want to work with any of those perverts?

I know you meant this post for Baptist Believer but does it have to be an either-or proposition? Not putting politics before the Gospel means, well, not putting politics before the Gospel. The Gospel is preeminent. Any political or societal system that is unbiblical should be opposed, regardless of the political implications. I have never voted for a Democrat in my life and I doubt that I ever will. For me, abortion is a litmus test. But that is just one issue.
 

Reynolds

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I've stated this many times before, but I state it again. I am a third-generation Republican who was a Republican in the South when it was a dirty word. I still hold the same principles I have held back when I voted for Ronald Reagan. The Republican Party is the one that has changed and I no longer identify as a Republican since the current crop of Republicans have rejected almost all of their historic values. But that doesn't make me a Democrat, it makes me an independent since there is currently no party that represents my views. However, I will not support Donald Trump in his re-election bid because of my Christian convictions.
You will be defector voting for the baby murderers. What did you like about Reagan? He gave us terrible justices.
 

Reynolds

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I know you meant this post for Baptist Believer but does it have to be an either-or proposition? Not putting politics before the Gospel means, well, not putting politics before the Gospel. The Gospel is preeminent. Any political or societal system that is unbiblical should be opposed, regardless of the political implications. I have never voted for a Democrat in my life and I doubt that I ever will. For me, abortion is a litmus test. But that is just one issue.
I felt the same until the Democrat party became the Champions of evil. I have no desire to go to church with Democrats. Their platform is evil and I feel commanded to separate from them.(I cor 5:11)
 

Reformed

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However, since the Trump campaign began in earnest in 2015 and prominent Christian leaders, especially Robert Jeffress at First Baptist Church Dallas (about 40 miles to the east of Fort Worth), jumped on the Trump train and blasted other Christians for not doing the same,

I was not surprised that men like Jeffress and Falwell, Jr. actively campaigned for then-candidate Trump. I was more than surprised when those men (and others) excoriated other Christians who voiced their concerns about Trump. I guess I should not have been surprised. There is a class of Christians who have bought into the egalitarian view that the ends always justify the means. For them, there is no room for freedom of conscience even though they tout soul liberty as a Baptist distinctive. In the end, they were willing to separate with their brother in Christ for the sake of politics. It is no wonder why the American church is weak.
 

Baptist Believer

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You will be defector voting for the baby murderers.
I didn't defect, the Republican Party defected. And you will be voting for an immoral man who cannot seem tell the truth, nor admit he is wrong. You are voting for the corruption of the American ideals and an attacker of the First Amendment (speech, religion, and press) and the rule of law.

What did you like about Reagan?
He was what the US needed at the time. Carter was not up to the demands of the office and Mondale was not much of a candidate. I also supported most of the Republican platform of the time.

He gave us terrible justices.
I didn't care for Scalia at all, so I agree with that one. I don't have much of an opinion on O'Connor, but I tended to like Kennedy.
 

Reynolds

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I didn't defect, the Republican Party defected. And you will be voting for an immoral man who cannot seem tell the truth, nor admit he is wrong. You are voting for the corruption of the American ideals and an attacker of the First Amendment (speech, religion, and press) and the rule of law.


He was what the US needed at the time. Carter was not up to the demands of the office and Mondale was not much of a candidate. I also supported most of the Republican platform of the time.


I didn't care for Scalia at all, so I agree with that one. I don't have much of an opinion on O'Connor, but I tended to like Kennedy.
Trump is the ideal American.
You have no opinion on O'Connor? Seriously?
 

Baptist Believer

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Trump is the ideal American.
We have completely different perspectives on what is ideal, much less what an American is supposed to be.

You have no opinion on O'Connor? Seriously?
She was hit or miss to me. I didn't like her position on school vouchers, but she was usually pretty good on religious liberty issues. She was a mixed bag on abortion. So there were things I liked and things I didn't like.
 

Reynolds

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We have completely different perspectives on what is ideal, much less what an American is supposed to be.


She was hit or miss to me. I didn't like her position on school vouchers, but she was usually pretty good on religious liberty issues. She was a mixed bag on abortion. So there were things I liked and things I didn't like.
Prior to Sotomayor she was the most liberal justice ever.
 

Reformed

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I have no issues with Christians who support - even those who strongly support - the President. I generally approved the President's appointments of Gorsuch and Kavanaugh. I am glad that he was willing to meet with Kim Jong Un. I approve of his making public his strong ties with Israel and his pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord and the Iran nuclear deal. Policy-wise he deserves a favorable rating. So, the purpose of this thread was not to rail against the President. The purpose of this thread was to focus a spotlight on the message of the church to the outside world. The church referenced in the news article was making a political statement, not a gospel or biblical statement. In my opinion, that is the problem. Our birthright as joint-heirs with Christ is not political influence, rather it is to do kingdom work.
 
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