Pastor with a divorced wife?

Okay, I understand what I am saying but apparently cannot communicate any better than local fast-food drive-thru cashier .

Here is another example:

Matthew 24:15 -
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)."

That last portion (whoever reads, let him understand), is thought by just about everyone to be an insert of Matthew. Jesus did not utter those words. Now, the Holy Spirit moved Matthew to write those words so they are perfectly inerrant, infallible, and inspired words. But it wasn't part of Jesus' message. The insert is found right in the middle of Jesus' discourse on eschatology. It is the same idea as the exception clause. Does this example help make my statements clear?

 

Why are you discussing the law when the Spirit of the Word is saying that God hates divorce.. the man who chooses to be involved with a divorced woman has chosen..... only God can know what the true cause of the divorce is...sometimes the innocent person is really the one who started the trouble that led to the divorce...It goes on and on....
Churches should take a stand against divorce and the man who wants to be a pastor anyway will find out what his rewards are when he gets to heaven...
Sorry i am not as learned and smart as you but i am able to discern the things of the Spirit v. our justification of the flesh...

 

Not neccessarily.

Porneia - fornication - sexual immorality could have meant several things within the context of Matthew 5:27-32:

Discovered sex during the betrothal period with another person, or some type of sexual union that Lev. 18-19 forbids.

If the first is true, then Matthew included it because that is exactly what happened to Joseph and Matthew is the only one who records it. In other words, Matthew recorded the event about Joseph in a favorable way and then condemned the guy without warning.

If the second is true, then Matthew included it to show that God had forbid the union and it needed to be "undone".

Either way, there is still no justification for the divorce and remarriage interpretation. It just isn't there.

 

While we can agree to disagree on this, this statement is clearly overstated. It is there and the majority of the best biblical scholars of recent generations have defended it.

I don't think the church is condoning divorce, to answer Ellie (I believe). We have to realize several things: 1) Divorce was permitted as was remarriage. The person committed this was not in "lesser standing" with teh covenant community in all cases. 2) God commanded divorce in some cases. 3) Christ gave what can reasonably and likely be interpreted as an exception. 4) Paul gave what can reasonably and likely be interpreted as an exception. None of this encourages or condones divorce. It does address what we do when someone is divorced.

PTW, I realize you have very strongly held convictions on this and I do not minimize that. You do seem to have read a lot and find it unconvincing. I have read all that you have read plus a few others and I (along with the majority) find your side unconvincing. Whatever our differences, do not misunderstand me. I think divorce is always the result of sin and in all but very few cases should never be encouraged. God intended marriage to be one man and one woman for one lifetime and that is what we should preach, teach, and model.

 

Scott J.

When a man walks daily in these sins as a way of life we are not even to sup with him much less sit under his teaching... these sins should have been repented of and hated by the man as much as God hates them...

The last 6 pages here have given all the necessary verses and explanations.. it is time for the person (whoever he is to make a stand otherwise he will find himself in James 1:6 ..
'The bible is a Spiritual book'..Without the Spirit leading when we read it becomes the law and legalism... the Spirit leads to life but the law leads to death...

I didn't mean that i am not as smart and learned as you personally but i meant most of the other people here who are some pastors and teachers and spend much more time than i do in books..But i do know the bible I can give scriptures but i am one who speaks from my heart..and not able to debate the doctrines the same way they do.. but i am God's child and He does give the least of us gifts and wisdom to enter into discussion with the best of them...I am a thinker and have done much study and seeking about all these things we discuss here.. some because of personal experience
"God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble"

By the way the person or persons in the examples can go ahead and pastor but they will never feel comfortable in the Baptist Church... of course they can always find another denomination that will be glad to have them...have him as a preacher...

I feel the same way and i don't understand but the bible says that God's ways are not our ways... It is hard... it is a kind of death to our own selves...
I know that people who play drums and rock music before they are saved go through the same battles in wanting to bring it into the church... and they argue and seek answers but are never satisfied because they have a "gift".. they finally find churches that use the music to bring yourg people into the family of God...
Jesus asked Peter to follow him he could have told Peter that he would be the first Pope and preach famous sermons and write some of the bible....Instead he told Peter that if he followed him he would suffer terrible things.. Thats a poor salespitch (R.D.)

As i was writing this my daughter called and i read your message to me and i looked up your profile... it says you don't have a church now... if you are in the springfield Mi. area ... she and her husband have a friend at the 2 baptist church of Springfield... if you want his name .. if you live in the area i will give you his email... he went to the baptist college there with my son-in-law..

 

Dr. Bob Griffin said
(Biblical reasons for allowing divorce are:
~Sexual Sin, Matthew
~Abandonment, I Corinthians)

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Two thing you have to be consider:
(1)These are parallel passages. One says you can put away your wife for fornication; the other makes no mention of it. Why is that? They are both teaching on the same topic. The Matthew passage was written to the Jews who would have an understanding from the law that fornication carried a death sentence. The gentiles to whom Mark wrote would not have had the same understanding. So in Matthew you are still saying the only good reason for a divorce would be if she died. In which case there really is not a divorce as is clearly taught in Rom. 7.

(2)"whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." A Man who marries a woman who is divorced is committing adultery and is not qualified to be a pastor.

 

APOLOGY TO MODERATOR: Sorry about the length. I tried to avoid unnecessary quoting and dealt with the issue as briefly as I could.

Let's take a deep breath and look at your argument very carefully:
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You say that Jesus is speaking to Jews who know that the penalty for sexual sin is death (even if it wasn't actually always carried out) and that is the reason Matthew includes the statement. I don't understand the point you are making by contrasting it with the Mark passage. As for the statement that the only reason for divorce is if the spouse dies is unusual to say the least. If the spouse dies, divorce is irrelevant. (Or is that the point? Do you believe Jesus is using a humorous impossibility?)

Given that is true and that this scripture passage in Matthew is authoritative, then there are two outcomes for Jewish believers who obey Jesus' teaching on this subject:

1) If the spouse in caught in sexual sin, they are executed and the surviving spouse is widowed, not divorced. They are free to remarry.

2.) If the spouse in caught in sexual sin, they are not executed but the innocent spouse is allowed to divorce the offending spouse because the spirit of the Law is in effect even though the sentence wasn't carried out.

Therefore, in cases of adultery, at least the people who follow the teachings of Jesus are allowed to divorce their spouses for sexual sin.

But then you may respond, "The marriage isn't over in the second case because the spouse is still alive!" and point to Romans 7. Romans 7 is not talking about divorce, but instead is an illustration of our new life in Christ. We are not longer married to the Law because we have died to the Law (Romans 7:4) and have been raised to live in Christ. Paul is also making the point that we cannot have two spouses, the Law and Christ. We are being unfaithful both the Law and Christ if we try to follow both. (I'm not saying Paul teaches that the law is evil or that we should completely ignore the Law -- see Galatians and read Romans carefully -- but instead, we are called to live by the Spirit and leave all of the ceremonial Law behind since it was incomplete and only pointed to Christ.) The only thing that Paul is saying about marriage is that we shouldn't have two husbands at the same time! Divorce is not considered here, only death. And if the death of a spouse allows the surviving spouse to remarry, then certainly an innocent party should be able to remarry without having to gather a mob together to end the life of his spouse!

But then you may respond, "Jesus said that man and woman would become one flesh! He also said "what God has joined together, let man not separate." (See Matthew 19:1-12 for context)

That is an interesting point, but lets look carefully at the passage:

Matthew 19:3 - The Pharisees were testing Him and asked if it was lawful for a man to divorce his wife for *any* reason. (Apparently, it was very common in the day for men to dump their wives, just like today.)

Matthew 19:4-5 - Jesus explains the original intent of marriage and the spiritual, emotional and physical union a man and a woman experience. He says they are no longer two, but one -- that is, they marry their fortunes and future together as a team. After explaining the sacred relationship of marriage, Jesus said, "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." The statement is a blessing and a strong statement is response to the Pharisees question about divorcing a wife for just any reason. (VERY IMPORTANT)-> Jesus did *not* say, "What God has joined together, man *cannot* separate." Clearly it is possible for man to have a divorce that God recognizes, otherwise Jesus would not have said what He said. (In my opinion, God recognizes divorce as the ending of a marriage. He does not approve of many divorces, but He certainly knows that the relationship has been severed and the bonds of marriage are broken. If you disagree, please post scripture which demonstrates God does not recognize divorce when he sees it.)

Matthew 19:9 - Jesus gives the exception clause in His statement against divorce.

Matthew 19:10 - Notice that the disciples were shocked when they found out that they could not divorce their wives for any reason. This command went strongly against their culture. It hits our hard too, which unlike insider trading, is "a good thing(tm)".

Conclusions:

1) Divorce is sometimes permissible.
2) When a person is divorced, the marriage is over.
3) If you have divorced unrighteously, remarriage is considered unfaithfulness to the former spouse.
4) If you have divorced righteously, then you are free to remarry and you do not sin and no one should hold a grudge against you.
5) Divorce is not a good thing but is sometimes the best option out of a bunch of lousy options.

[ July 19, 2002, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Baptist Believer you only dealt with one of the reason. what of the second.

(2)"whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." A Man who marries a woman who is divorced is committing adultery and is not qualified to be a pastor.

 

Yow! Sorry...

I want to think about this a little more carefully, but my gut feeling is that the adultery statements involving marrying someone who is divorced refers to divorced people who are divorced without good cause. If someone is divorced righteously, then they should be free to remarry. But I want to look at the scripture carefully to see if my gut feeling is correct before I take a strong stand on it.

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

Yes, that’s it! A person’s background needs to be taken into consideration too though. If you are Billy Bob Thornton and you have been married five times, I doubt it has all been your ex-wives fault. (Even if it is, it demonstrates a lack of wisdom to marry that many women who will give you cause for divorce.) But as far as I can tell, you have the correct interpretation.

Everyone interprets scripture by their own understanding. We are all trying to apply the “clear scriptural standard” to modern circumstances.

It does not.

Correct. For the record, I haven’t been trying to prove your potential pastor is unqualified. I’ve actually been pointing out flaws in the arguments of those who say he not morally qualified. Personally, I do not think the fact that he married a woman who was divorced was necessarily sinful, much less an issue of moral qualifications for a pastor.

The reason you’re not getting one is that it doesn’t exist.

He is not pastoring in the past, he is pastoring in the present. God is a God of new beginnings. Even if he had sinned by his marriage, what does that have to do with today? Measure him by what he is doing today. If he has been forgiven his alleged sin by God, who are we to hold it over his head?

Yup. It is very easy to condemn a divorced person until you see someone who is doing all the things right but can’t save their marriage.

In any case, God’s grace should be the overriding emphasis here instead of judgement.

You are welcome!

 

Brethren,
Someone showed me the following and I thought it very shocking. I thought I'd throw it in just to see if it will make things better or worse. I'll duck either way!

1. God divorces Israel the unfaithful Gomer in Hosea.
2. God (in the person of Jesus Christ)marries (a second time)a Gentile bride called the church in the New Testament.
3. Depending on your Escatology, she (the Gentile bride) goes to Heaven (rapture.)
4. Then, God remarries Israel the repentant Gomer!
Observation 1: Is He being the husband of one wife?
Observation 2: Is he qualified for leadership?
THE AUDACITY!!!!!!!!!

I told you it was wild.
Ben

 

Hey no problem! I don't think it disqualifies you from leadership!

 

Yup. She was divorced for her persistent adulteries (following after idols).

Not Gentile (or Jewish), but a bride from every tribe and nation. Believing Gentiles have been grafted into the spiritual descendants of Abraham, so that our ethinic background, our religious background and our spiritual heritage make no difference. We are all one in the new Kingdom as the Bride of Christ.

This is where it went off the tracks... God does not marry more than one bride. There is one bride alone. The is one way to God, though Jesus Christ (John 14:6). There is not one way for Gentiles and another for Jews.

He is a "one woman" God.

Not according to many here...

It was at least "wild".

Seriously, you touched on some very important truths in with your first two points. The third is based on a secret rapture belief that seems to be extra-biblical. The fourth seems to imply a separate pattern of redemption for those who are descendants of Abraham by the flesh. God will still work with those descendants, but they still have to come to Jesus through repentance and faith.

[ July 19, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Why is a man who marries a divorced woman disqualified from being a pastor?

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The above passage says that if you marry a divorced woman you commit adultery. This woman would fall under 1 Cor 7:15.

1 Cor 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

This verse says that in the case of desertion (divorce) by an unbelieving spouse, the believer is not to be held at fault. However, if that same man or woman remarries he/she commits adultery (Luke 16:18).

So, let now look at the qualifications of a pastor.

1 Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, . . .
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil

A man who is committing adultery is not blameless. This would give reasons for non-christians to talk and come up with reasons not to come or just spread gossip and hurt the church. The pastor is not supposed to bring reproach to the church but to help it grow.