Pastoral Authority

All this makes a good case for churches led by a plurality of Godly elders rather than one pastor.

Les

 

Why? Because he's a pastor? Yes

Until I know "all" the facts from both sides, YES YES YES!

 

If the preacher didn't say, then who did?

I remeber my first pastor's remarks to an elderly man who asked if he was old enough to lead the congregation, his reply, "The question is, are you willing to follow God's man?"

"Bye,Sir, it's been a pleasure!"

I might have asked the pastor who ,prese, "kicked them out" to either send a letter of apology or face disciplinary action for his behaviour and then acting like a hireling

Perhaps, but please do be careful here.

Although I agree, you could be giving the hint of just another organization to call pastors and to also dismiss them. The church is to be local, not global, nor universal. Each is to be indigenous,slef-supporting,selfgoverning. Independent.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Asking a lawyer to intercede and look over the way God's church is run???? NO WAY!!!

Hope you end up with God's man and not a lawyer's puppet.

 

OK, take Ephesians 5 out or youre Bible nad have it the Burger King way.

 

Good balanced post and God honouring and showing proper respect to the duties of the man of God.

 

I didn't know the Lord needed anyone to try cases in the governing of His Church?raying:

 

I will be happy to weigh in on this. The discipline to which you refer is "Polity". I teach a course in Baptist Polity at Wesley Theological Seminary, a United Methodist institution at which some 40-50 Baptist students are enrolled. The seminary recognized that it was important for these students to learn about how a Baptist church operates -- and not just the "nuts and bolts", either, but the history and theology that informs our tradition.

I have the students examine not only the relevant scriptures and the history of polity, but also the relationship of personality types to the way an organism (a term which I prefer to "organization") operates. We spend a lot of time examining and debating how a pastor is to steer between complete passivity (and therefore ineffectiveness) and authoritarianism (which leads to organizational effectiveness, perhaps, but spiritual pygmies in the congregation).

I attended a Baptist seminary, and we did NOT have a polity course per se! We had Baptist history and a course in church administration, but I do not think the issues of polity were addressed as systemically as they could have been (and as I try now to do).

 

I don't have to, verses 1-21 read...

1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be rno filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead tlet there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that ueveryone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

“ Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father xin the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.​

My guess is that you believe that v.11 is the central thought in this pericope. That would be truly sad and would support an atmosphere of witchhunts which is the reality in all too many fellowships. The role of any pastor is to shepherd the people of God and lead them to embrace a life that fulfills both the Great Commission and Great Commandments.

I see no correllation between my comment that pastors are not to be cops or taskmasters in their churches and Ephesians 5 certainly favors and encourages gentle leadership.

 

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


This current rebellion in the church in America today is reminiscent of Number 16.

 

Chain of Command is Jesus ios the HEAD of the Church, now if you want to take Him from the head of the chain, be my guest, but not advisable.

 

As long as you don't let the "blind lead the blind". I think we have some responsibility towards right and wrong when obeying our leaders.

 

Nobody (certainly not me) has stated or even come close to suggesting that any pastor or chruch member remove Christ from His position as head of the church... WE CAN'T.

Again, to assert that a pastor must be a micro-managing policeman to be an effective overseer, bishop, and shepherd is silly and not even worth discussing. I would conclude that any leader who has to constantly assert their authority to maintain standing as THE PASTOR needs to spend some time and energies relearning what biblical leadership should look like.

The same can be said of authoritarian husbands...

 

Oh, I agree with you, it was just your first statement that I addressed.

If a man has to declare he is "The Pastor" to his congregation, he has one of two problems: he has no power of God in his preaching, or his congregation is nothing but a bunch of head-butting goats.

I personally remind the people that all things are to be done decently and in order. They are welcome to say "Amen!" or "Oh, me!", but to carry on a conversation during the service is out of order.

My pastor is welcome in my home anytime, I have nothing to hide, from him or God. In fact, my standards are a little higher than his in many areas, so if he wants to "micro-manage" my home, well, he's the one in for it!:laugh:

 

I also have been under a Pastor that abused the Authority that God Gave him. BUT also remember that there are two courses of Biblical action.
1. Follow along and pray that God changes their hearts. (or yours, if God is moving you on to another church)
2. Matthew 18 has the best way of dealing with any problem that should arise. Pastor or no it is what God allowed in His Word for dealing with a problem. (But bear in mind that you better have a good selection of scripture passages/verses to back up what you believe that was done wrong and why.)