Pastoral Call and Pay Package

I think the biblical teaching that "the laborer is worthy of his hire" is against this idea. There are some cases where a church can't support a fulltime pastor, but that should not be the goal.

When I was in school, I considered a "fall back" occupation and decided against it because I didn't want the temptation to bail out when things got tough. When pastoring is the only thing you can do, you may tend to do it better and work harder at it.

When your fallback occupation pays better with less pain, it is easy to sense the leading of the Spirit. When your fallback position is "Shepherd the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you an overseer," it is easier to stay.

If the goal is "portable and well paid," ministry is probably not the place for you. That may be why the average tenure in a church is 3 years or so: pastors desire to be well paid (in salary, benefits, and ease of living) and they view themselves as portable. A "ticket to financial independence" does not seem to be the goal of the pastor in the NT. So I would be very cautious of this. It may lead to hirelings who want to make money so they can pastor on the side, or who won't be a fulltime pastor because a church can't support their desired standard of living.

Having said that, anyone with reasonable intelligence and ability is able to do a lot of things, particularly if they will work hard. If I wasn't a pastor, or had to be bi-vo, I wouldn't be worried about getting a job.

Without any reflection on my friends here (especially Tom who this thread is about), it seems to me that we as pastors ought to worry less about these kinds of things. We should have a wage we can live on. (Being comfortable living on it is a different matter.) We should work as hard or harder than the people in our congregation work. If you expect them to put in 40-50 hours at their jobs and then come and be involved in the church ministry, you can't put in 40 hours (or less) and go home.

Just some of my view of pastoral theology ...

 

I think that getting background and credit checks on pastoral candidates to be a great idea. There is nothing in such a request that suggests a desire by a church to have poor pastors. Rather, it is a type of objective indicator of what a church may expect from a prospective leader. Pastors with undisciplined financial lifestyles, personal debt problems, etc... bring a level of risk and distraction with them.

 

I think this is a good idea. If a man can't manage his own house (including money), then how shall he manage the church of God? Debt is a tremendously hard master, and one cannot serve two masters. (I didn't make that up.)

And they were hardly suggesting that "all pastor tended toward poor and secretive financial dealings." That is a far stretch. Your refusal indicated that at least you tend toward secretive financial dealings. There is no way of knowing if they are poor or not.

 

If one has no training outside of ministry, there is also the distinct possibility that one can be doing the ministry only for the money because one could not find another decent job.

As one without training in a secular occupation, I have had to ask myself if I am doing it for the money.

Bi-vocational ministry is difficult for those without secular training or experience. If a church is only paying you 100/wk, and you can't make much above minimum wage, it is going to be quite difficult to support a family. Some economies are also more difficult for employment. Of course, having secular training is very helpful for those called to bi-vocational ministry. If all one has is ministry training, bi-vocational ministry becomes hard to accomplish, especially since many of the hourly-rate jobs require work on Sundays.

 

lol, whats that?

 

1 Corinthians 4:1 “Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.”

I conclude it is mainly this verse which allows the probing into a potential Pastors private financial affairs. If so, then it's a practice which should be followed for all of Gods people since the verse didn't target "Leaders"

If the church is already attempting to meddle into a potential Pastors private financial affairs, that doesn't appear a good indication of a stable church. I think I would pass on applying for that position.

I also wouldn't wait for the vote until the release of the pay package, they don't seem to mind wasting your time.

 

Hehehe.

What I am saying is that a church shouldn't be as so manipulative that way.

I guess, though, some pastors are in it for the money. HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA.

But there are more churches that under pay their staff, and don't include such basic benefits as insurance and retirement.

 

Could be, but I would think this would be less of an issue, IMO. But I can't speak for others.

I would think it would be harder for those without seminary training.

It would seem to be extremely hard to get to your mid-20s with no secular job experience. I have had a job since I was 12 years old with the exception of two months at the end of my senior year in high school. Other than that, I have had continuous employment. That employment has equipped me, not necessarily with specific skills, but with the willingness to work, and to learn, and to succeed.

If you are looking for a top paying job in a specialized field like accounting or medicine or engineering, you are probably correct that it would be hard to find a job. But if that is a man's goal, pastoring is probably not where his heart is anyway.

To see the other side, we must understand that being bivo without seminary means you have to work harder to prepare messages and put more time in in study. Which means it becomes harder to balance a schedule.

So rather than encouraging a fallback education, I would encourage a thorough seminary education that equips one to do the study of the Word.

I think you have to be trying pretty hard to make minimum wage in this economy unless you are in high school. Very few jobs actually pay minimum wage. But these are choices we have to make ...

 

Is a credit check meddling though? Do you, as a church member, want a pastor who is thousands and thousands of dollars in debt? Who has bankruptcy in his recent past due to poor spending habits and lack of selfcontrol with credit cards?

Meddling is one thing; credit checks are another.

How would a church verify self-control and management character as required by 1 Tim 3? Shouldn't some sort of financial questioning be in order?

 

Why must bi-vocational churches have untrained pastors?

I believe that all ministers should pursue education--whether Bible college or seminary or both.

My point is simply this--the ideal arrangment is to have some sort of training to make money in a secular world along with seminary or Bible college education.

Not everyone has valuable experience. When I was in high school, I focused on extracurricular activities (Quiz Bowl, debate, speech team) and took challenging classes in order to get a scholarship, and I had my college bill completely paid by scholarship money. I majored in ministry and minored in history and ministered in a local church. I am now in Liberty's MDiv program online. I have no real secular experience, and I am not currently in a paid position.

I've found myself in a very difficult position, and I wish I had also earned marketable credential (double major/ minor in business or something) during my undergraduate career--not to avoid ministry (I'm earnestly seeking that, but nothing has worked out) but to provide for my wife and our child on the way. I left my last position because I was not able to find a secular job to supplement my bi-vocational ministry, and we are now living with family until we can get on our feet.

What I would recommend someone to do is to get an undergraduate degree in a secular field such as business, then go to seminary.

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't think any church should have an untrained pastor. That was my point: Worry more about your theological training than your secular training.

And by all mean, get a bachelor's degree in something other than Bible before going to seminary. When I was in high school I also participated in many extracurriculars including music and band as well as sports (multiple sports both in school and club level).

So I would caution against either end of the picture -- that one must have secular training or that one must not have. I don't think it matters for someone whose heart is in ministry.

 

Read 1 Tim 3. Unless I have missed something, your verse(s) are being misapplied. The bible does not indicate it is the churches job to catagorize a Pastors financial affairs under the heading of "self-control or management character" . IT is not the churches job to meddle. This sounds manipulative to me.

There are many valid reasons why one goes into debt, they often have to do with his families very private medical issues (or past medical issues which are cleared up now). Either way, it is none of the churches business.
To remind a pastor of this verse is well....a bit touchy but maybe you can get away with it depending upon how you say it :thumbs:

 

It would make an interesting poll to conclude how Pastors view this issue, and how prevalent it is (to be asked about your private financial affairs when applying for a Pastorial Position)

 

Pastor Larry
I apologize for this third post in a row but I want to offer an analogy

Let's say the Pastor DID spend frivously in the past. Now he has changed his ways yet has a bad credit history. Bi-polar folks often do this until they receive meds

Let's say a Pastor committed adultery in the past. You would not know this because there
is no permenant record of this as with the spending.

If he repented, then he is forgiven of both sins. As a church member, I do not need to know every sin he has committed in the past. I also forgive him

Yes, he could still be spending his heart away. Oh well....
We could worry ourselves into oblivion thinking up trivial issues to mull over. Instead, why not require a stewardship class involving the biblical way to handle money upon hire?

 

The church is not meddling with a credit check. If a man cannot control his spending, then he is disqualified. Self control appplies to every area of life.

If you notice my post, I specified a kind of debt:recent past due to poor spending habits and lack of selfcontrol with credit cards.

I am not talking about something twenty years ago cleared up. I am not talking about unforeseen emergency medical bills. I am talking about a lack of self-control.

Why not? Are not churches supposed to examine the man they are calling to pastor? On what biblical basis do you rule certain areas as exempt from examination? We are to examine men to find them suitable for ministry.

He won't have a bad credit history if he has changed his ways and given ample time to show it. Credit history really only lastt seven years.

Irrelevant, since Bi-polar people are disqualified from ministry anyway.

You probably would if you do a background search.

Which is great, but leadership has additional requirements. Every sin does not disqualify but some do.

Who would teach it? The pastor is in charge of teaching and you don't even know if he is qualified. Furthermore, why require a class for someone who doesn't need it? If a church does its homework ahead of time, this becomes a non-issue.

Anyway, we are off topic here. Perhaps we should get back to it.

 

Great responses, Pastor Larry!

But I believe that the questions are on topic. If a person doesn't show diligence in their own finances, they probably won't show the diligence needed in the church.

I asked the church to do a crdit check as well as a background check before coming here as Pastor. We do this for any pastoral staff we call. If one area of our lives are out of control, chances are that other areas will spiral wildly also.

 

"questioning" and a credit check are radically different things. One takes one's word while the other doesn't :wavey: If you aren't going to take a person's word why would you want them in the pulpit? :tear:

 

It amazes me how poorly prepared most people are in churches to hire a pastor. Most of the leaders would never be hired in a leadership capacity at their places of employment yet are in places of leadership in the church. The church should have even higher standards than secular workplaces but yet so often they do not.