Pastoral Call and Pay Package

Depends on why he is overweight, and how overweight he is. A guy who is 400 pounds because he can't lay off the ice cream and cake (or anything else), and can't get off the couch, is disqualified. A guy who has a thyroid problem is not.

So getting references from past churches and acquaintances is right, but getting a reference from past commercial relationships is wrong? How does that work? On what biblical basis do you question a past church, but not a past creditor? Don't you see the inconsistency of that? What if a guy has a habit of not paying his bills? Is that important for consideration? I think it is.

On the basis that a man is supposed to be examined in areas of money love and self control. I don't consider a credit check probing. If a prospective church asked me to do a credit check, I would have no problem at all, so long as they shared the results with me.

It was hard to get into credit trouble before credit and credit histories were available.

I am sure a candidate would be able to clear that up and would not object to doing so.

On the basis of being above reproach, temperate, respectable, gentle, and a good reputation with those outside the church. A bipolar quite often is not fine with meds. They often keep adjusting meds and experimenting to find a level. A bipolar is also two to three days away from a manic stage. That is incompatible with the qualifications for pastor.

You wouldn't, but if he was dismissed from a previous church for it, a reference would let you know that.

Absolutely necessary. But not enough. But again notice how you are fine with checking some references, but not checking others. Why? On what biblical basis do you make that distinction?

So we agree on that. So if a guy ran up a $30,000 credit card bill that he is not and cannot pay off buying the latest in cars, electronics, computers, clothes, and vacations, is that a problem?

You detect wrongly. I think the biblical qualifications must be taken seriously. I don't think we get to pick and choose which are the important ones. Too many churches settle for good communicators or good administrators rather than finding a good man. The office of the pastor is viewed very poorly because of these kinds of things. The church is supposed to protect the church and the office of pastor by examining a man.

I don't think you really told us what you think the limits of examination are?

 

I find it to be an insult when churches do not check references and do a credit check. It is a way for them to find out more about me and give me more credibility because I have excellent references and credit. My wife also has impeccable references from her employment and personal references. I think that credit checks should be run on every deacons and elder in churches too. In one church I pastored one of the deacons said to me, "Your family is just too perfect." He did not like it that I sought to follow the Bible and be a dependable employee. It amazed me how little people in churches know about finances and leadership. Yet so often they try to act as though they do. In one church I pastored I told the treasuer that she was reporting to the IRS wrongly. She insisted that what she was doing was right and had gotten advice from the SBC. The IRS audited me and claimed that I owed them about $5,000 for one year in back taxes. I had the accountant who did the taxes for my business when I was in business and the taxes for several local pastors write the IRS a letter. The IRS responded by sending me a letter telling me everything was fine. I reported correctly and the church did not. The IRS found the church wrong.

Years ago I interviewed with a large company for a management position and they asked me to fill out a temperament test. They also did an MVR report and a credit check plus called all of my references and places where I had worked. They also interviewed me for about 7 hours plus eating meals with them. I have never had any church do that.

 

Pastor Larry

Thanks for your note.
When applying for a job, one expects their past work history to be looked into. I didn't base that on biblical principals.
I don't see how your interpretation of 1 Timothy justifies ordering a credit check concerning their spending habits prior to employment with the church. If they own a really expensive car as your example states, I wouldn't hire them without inquiring how they got it. Was it a gift handed down from a dying father to remain in the family? You can find out a lot by asking in a non-confrontational manner such as "nice car, is it fairly new?
I would check his criminal background history.
The reason is how leaders, (people) spend their hard earned money is their business. If they are in debt, there needs to be a little faith involved in giving them the benefit of the doubt since they are doing what is needed by getting a job.
We desire it is also be their calling.
Maybe the credit card bills were used to buy food, pay the utilities, get their honor student out of jail, and he is innocent etc...it's not biblical, nor appropriate to order a credit check regarding this persons finances, then place him on the stand regarding what you found.
If you suspect he is a little poor in handling his personal finances and it a little debt, then maybe ordering a credit check is understandable but that's still a bit shaky. I would probably just not hire this candidate, or spend a good amount of time socially with him to get my questions answered. Then use his references to verify his story

I agree there should be higher standards for hiring in the church than the secular world. I guess we just don't agree on this portion of it. And that's fine.

 

Leaders are not about proving themselves. They are to be proven people already.

If a man spends 100K per year and a church can only afford 50K that is a lot of difference.

 

A friend of mine was interviewing with a pulpit committee that told him their church did not have enough money to pay a full-time pastor. He raised the blinds on the meeting room, and pointed to the 12 very nice and nearly new S.U.V.s sitting in the parking lot (next to his junker), and said, "If your church is so poor, who is driving these vehicles?

He did not get the job...

 

Here is the irony: And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free from such a church.:laugh:

 

That's great news!:godisgood:

 

Knowing how most people live today it was probably the truth that they could not afford anything more than interest payments on their highest priority--a car.

 

AMEN AND AMEN - May your tribe increase!

 

The Church that goes no further than a credit check does a great disservice to the pastoral candidate and themselves. A Credit check can only tell how much indebtedness a person has and how his payment history stacks up. It shows only liabilities and nothing on the asset side.

If any church were to do a credit check on me right now they would assume that I am too much in debt to be a good risk. However, what they do not know is that I have assets that outweigh all the liabilities several times over.

A better gauge of a man's financial position is a credit check plus a CPA-certified Financial Statement - but then I'm not sure I'd want any prospective church knowing all my personal financial business.

All of this is a moot point with me since I will not be seeking another position except that of "Retirement" and that only when I am too old and too feeble to preach anymore. That may be a long time since I have one retired preacher in my congregation who at 90 is still preaching and playing golf. Don't laugh - He can beat me at both!:laugh: