Pastoral Care for Those Conquered by Sin

[Steven Yeadon]

OK, the scenario is pretty simple:

A person who is lost in a sin, or multiple sins, such as alcoholism, drug abuse, regular pornography usage, physical adultery or any number of things; that person has come to a pastor seeking pastoral counseling. They say they are a believer, yet their entire time as a believer they have not had any victory over their sin. It's like being a believer does not help them out of their sin at all.

I make this scenario, because from my own history, if I were the one in counseling, this means I need to go and get saved immediately. Because, I was a liberal Christian, who had no victory over sin until I was saved by faith in the Jesus of the fundamentalists two years ago. Then the besetting sins all sloughed off over a short period of time after salvation. Of course, I still get tempted and sin, but I have also gotten much more self-control to override my temptations, and sin is more the exception than the rule it used to be.

Given verses like Romans 3:31, Romans 8:1-17, 1 John 2:28-3:10; I am led to believe that this viewpoint is accurate.

However, what little I know of pastoral care is that, such a scenario is handled very differently than I would expect. Also, if the person continues in their sin, some congregations may discipline the member. So, I am trying to understand what is going on here in your minds on the BB, in order to gain understanding.

 

[canadyjd]

I have dealt with folks in these kind of situations. First of all, I approached it from the view that I cannot pronounce someone to be saved or unsaved. I can't see the presence of Holy Spirit indwelling someone. I can say, however, if someone's behavior is consistent with a profession of faith in Jesus Christ.

If someone is "conquered" by sin, asked yourself if they are unrepentant of the sin. If so, they should have no assurance of salvation and you shouldn't give them any.

If they are repentant, then you should help them recognize triggers for the sinful behavior and look for ways to avoid the situations that lead to the sin.

If church discipline is involved, make sure the policy is clearly stated and followed, according to scriptural guidelines. I once had a Pastor who would name people from the pulpit and admonished publicly as a first step. Not a good idea.

I hope that helps

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If church discipline is involved, make sure the policy is clearly stated and followed, according to scriptural guidelines. I once had a Pastor who would name people from the pulpit and admonished publicly as a first step. Not a good idea.

Thank you for your insight.

I have dealt with folks in these kind of situations. First of all, I approached it from the view that I cannot pronounce someone to be saved or unsaved. I can't see the presence of Holy Spirit indwelling someone. I can say, however, if someone's behavior is consistent with a profession of faith in Jesus Christ.

If someone is "conquered" by sin, asked yourself if they are unrepentant of the sin. If so, they should have no assurance of salvation and you shouldn't give them any.

If they are repentant, then you should help them recognize triggers for the sinful behavior and look for ways to avoid the situations that lead to the sin.

I guess only one thing bothers me about this advice. That is that when I was a liberal Christian, my major sins made me feel guilty and regretful, but that didn't stop my sin. I sought help in things like twelve step programs and pastoral care, but both failed to cure me in the end. Twelve step programs shock me in that they make you feel like a reprobate sinner unable to get better except by doing the program, which will leave you a reprobate sinner at heart and occasionally in deed. Usually, my major sins hid a ton of more hidden sins, that I didn't even know were wrong until I sat down with the bible and read it literally.

Given this, would you deem it wrong to ask the person to consider their own salvation? I wouldn't want to tell them they aren't saved if I don't have strong evidence, you are right. Paul never called the Corinthians or Thessalonians unsaved, even though some may have been impostors. So, I understand the problem here.

It just seems like some effort should be made to explain the scriptures on the need to examine our own hearts, to explain the fruit of the Spirit, and to explain the characteristics that mark the redeemed. Characteristics that require the Holy Spirit and saving faith, Spiritual characteristics that are oddly enough the reason we sail through things like the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.

I add this step, I guess you can call it, because given my own history it seems imperative to make sure the member is fully equipped to know their own state. I say that because the old analogy of "going to hell on a feather bed" seems downright cruel when its my eternity at stake, in this case someone that may be like me.

Do you agree or am I off in your opinion?

 

[Reynolds]

OK, the scenario is pretty simple:

A person who is lost in a sin, or multiple sins, such as alcoholism, drug abuse, regular pornography usage, physical adultery or any number of things; that person has come to a pastor seeking pastoral counseling. They say they are a believer, yet their entire time as a believer they have not had any victory over their sin. It's like being a believer does not help them out of their sin at all.

I make this scenario, because from my own history, if I were the one in counseling, this means I need to go and get saved immediately. Because, I was a liberal Christian, who had no victory over sin until I was saved by faith in the Jesus of the fundamentalists two years ago. Then the besetting sins all sloughed off over a short period of time after salvation. Of course, I still get tempted and sin, but I have also gotten much more self-control to override my temptations, and sin is more the exception than the rule it used to be.

Given verses like Romans 3:31, Romans 8:1-17, 1 John 2:28-3:10; I am led to believe that this viewpoint is accurate.

However, what little I know of pastoral care is that, such a scenario is handled very differently than I would expect. Also, if the person continues in their sin, some congregations may discipline the member. So, I am trying to understand what is going on here in your minds on the BB, in order to gain understanding.

I am confused. How can you be a "liberal Christian" and then subsequently be "Saved by faith..."?

 

[Yeshua1]

I am confused. How can you be a "liberal Christian" and then subsequently be "Saved by faith..."?

Can one be liberal in theology and be a christian?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I am confused. How can you be a "liberal Christian" and then subsequently be "Saved by faith..."?

I believed that faith was stupid if blind, thus I only believed in God and a historical Jesus as far as the evidence allowed.

I trusted apologetics and personal experiences to provide me proof for God, and then I based all my doctrine and everything on that evidence. I was even quite angry with those who said God could not do miracles, since formal logic "proved" he could. I put no actual faith, as defined by Hebrews 11:1, in God or the truth of Christ Jesus at all. In seminary, where I was training to be a "moderate" evangelical leader, I argued with everyone to seek the logical evidence of God and the experience of God to know He existed, never to trust faith as defined by Hebrews.

So, two years ago, after being supernaturally convicted for a month that I was going to hell if I died, I finally gave in and put blind faith in Jesus. I changed overnight, became a fundamentalist, and haven't really looked back.

My story is complex, but Matthew 7:21-23 makes it plain that even those who will claim faith in Jesus can somehow go to hell. Given Romans 10:9, I figure that is because they never made Jesus LORD or never really trusted in his resurrection in their hearts.

 

[Reynolds]

Can one be liberal in theology and be a christian?

It would depend on how liberal.

 

[Yeshua1]

It would depend on how liberal.

True, as I meant liberal in the sense of not accepting the rersurrection, nor atonement, basically a good morals teacher!

 

[Reynolds]

I believed that faith was stupid if blind, thus I only believed in God and a historical Jesus as far as the evidence allowed.

I trusted apologetics and personal experiences to provide me proof for God, and then I based all my doctrine and everything on that evidence. I was even quite angry with those who said God could not do miracles, since formal logic "proved" he could. I put no actual faith, as defined by Hebrews 11:1, in God or the truth of Christ Jesus at all. In seminary, where I was training to be a "moderate" evangelical leader, I argued with everyone to seek the logical evidence of God and the experience of God to know He existed, never to trust faith as defined by Hebrews.

So, two years ago, after being supernaturally convicted for a month that I was going to hell if I died, I finally gave in and put blind faith in Jesus. I changed overnight, became a fundamentalist, and haven't really looked back.

My story is complex, but Matthew 7:21-23 makes it plain that even those who will claim faith in Jesus can somehow go to hell. Given Romans 10:9, I figure that is because they never made Jesus LORD or never really trusted in his resurrection in their hearts.

Gotcha. You weren't a "liberal Christian" but a liberal lost person who was heavily involved in religious activity.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Can one be liberal in theology and be a christian?

It would depend on how liberal.

Maybe another question would be, can faith in the Liberal Jesus save? I mean, the Jesus of my old friends, the one of modernity, liberal politics, and modern feminism, makes no sense at all given the bible. Is calling that Jesus Lord and Savior going to save?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Gotcha. You weren't a "liberal Christian" but a liberal lost person who was heavily involved in religious activity.

Thank you, I think that is accurate. Then again, my belief is that there are no truly liberal "Christians" to begin with.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Gotcha. You weren't a "liberal Christian" but a liberal lost person who was heavily involved in religious activity.

I have to say it in snark: At least I was a Moderate Baptist Leader! Going to seminary to shepherd a flock...of wolves.

 

[Reynolds]

I have to say it in snark: At least I was a Moderate Baptist Leader! Going to seminary to shepherd a flock...of wolves.

Well most churches are full of wolves, goats, and tares. As my friend says, his flock needs either a goat herder or a cowboy because they sure ain't going to follow anyone.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Well most churches are full of wolves, goats, and tares. As my friend says, his flock needs either a goat herder or a cowboy because they sure ain't going to follow anyone.

I agree really, based on polling. Polls show that the vast majority of people who claim "Christian" or even "evangelical" are going to be amazed at the Judgment, when they fail to stack up to warnings like in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats or Sermon on the Mount. Two favorites of liberal Christians, of all things. Faith gives us the Spirit and justification, but without a changed life of overcoming sin you can't claim anything concrete about salvation, so says James and John and even Paul in spots.

That has to be the next thread I start, I am amazed that most church leaders put up with goats, wolves, and tares at all. I see the unholiness of the flock as Satan's hidden coup de grace against the church, which is already facing threats from without and within on theological and political issues.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you for your insight.



I guess only one thing bothers me about this advice. That is that when I was a liberal Christian, my major sins made me feel guilty and regretful, but that didn't stop my sin. I sought help in things like twelve step programs and pastoral care, but both failed to cure me in the end. Twelve step programs shock me in that they make you feel like a reprobate sinner unable to get better except by doing the program, which will leave you a reprobate sinner at heart and occasionally in deed. Usually, my major sins hid a ton of more hidden sins, that I didn't even know were wrong until I sat down with the bible and read it literally.

Given this, would you deem it wrong to ask the person to consider their own salvation? I wouldn't want to tell them they aren't saved if I don't have strong evidence, you are right. Paul never called the Corinthians or Thessalonians unsaved, even though some may have been impostors. So, I understand the problem here.

It just seems like some effort should be made to explain the scriptures on the need to examine our own hearts, to explain the fruit of the Spirit, and to explain the characteristics that mark the redeemed. Characteristics that require the Holy Spirit and saving faith, Spiritual characteristics that are oddly enough the reason we sail through things like the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.

I add this step, I guess you can call it, because given my own history it seems imperative to make sure the member is fully equipped to know their own state. I say that because the old analogy of "going to hell on a feather bed" seems downright cruel when its my eternity at stake, in this case someone that may be like me.

Do you agree or am I off in your opinion?

The issue of repentent verses unrepentent centers on the presence of Holy Spirit. A Christian has the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin and heals a relationship grieved by sin.

You cannot go wrong pointing folks to scripture.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

You cannot go wrong pointing folks to scripture.

Thank you for that insight.

The issue of repentent verses unrepentent centers on the presence of Holy Spirit. A Christian has the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin and heals a relationship grieved by sin.

Thank you so much for taking the time to teach me.

This brings up something that has bothered me for a while. The toughest testimony of pastoral care I know. I have heard of a testimony of a person in pastoral care that hates the fact they use hard drugs, but cannot seem to get past their addiction. They pray, they keep trying to repent after every use, and they are determined to to do the right thing. At least until they start to feel withdrawal. Then they rush back to their drugs. Is that repentance or unrepentance in your opinion? Or is the problem more basic: Like the fact this pastoral care is not transparent with law enforcement or the medical community, who would provide medical help and consequences, in an effort to protect the confidentiality of the person in care?

 

[Yeshua1]

Maybe another question would be, can faith in the Liberal Jesus save? I mean, the Jesus of my old friends, the one of modernity, liberal politics, and modern feminism, makes no sense at all given the bible. Is calling that Jesus Lord and Savior going to save?

No, as that Jesus would not be seen as being the Lord, but more like a political activist and morals teacher!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree really, based on polling. Polls show that the vast majority of people who claim "Christian" or even "evangelical" are going to be amazed at the Judgment, when they fail to stack up to warnings like in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats or Sermon on the Mount. Two favorites of liberal Christians, of all things. Faith gives us the Spirit and justification, but without a changed life of overcoming sin you can't claim anything concrete about salvation, so says James and John and even Paul in spots.

That has to be the next thread I start, I am amazed that most church leaders put up with goats, wolves, and tares at all. I see the unholiness of the flock as Satan's hidden coup de grace against the church, which is already facing threats from without and within on theological and political issues.

The term Christian in those polls really needs to be examined closely, as that would include all Catholics, Mormons, JW, new agers, basically any holding to a Higher power!
And there are not that many real Christians in this nations as the polls indicate, as there are few who indeed have a saving relationship with the Biblical jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

The issue of repentent verses unrepentent centers on the presence of Holy Spirit. A Christian has the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin and heals a relationship grieved by sin.

You cannot go wrong pointing folks to scripture.

the social Gospel gets all into social activism , and yet it misses the real proble, the sin issue that the Cross provides to lost sinners!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for that insight.



Thank you so much for taking the time to teach me.

This brings up something that has bothered me for a while. The toughest testimony of pastoral care I know. I have heard of a testimony of a person in pastoral care that hates the fact they use hard drugs, but cannot seem to get past their addiction. They pray, they keep trying to repent after every use, and they are determined to to do the right thing. At least until they start to feel withdrawal. Then they rush back to their drugs. Is that repentance or unrepentance in your opinion? Or is the problem more basic: Like the fact this pastoral care is not transparent with law enforcement or the medical community, who would provide medical help and consequences, in an effort to protect the confidentiality of the person in care?

The big problem is that many focus on their own sin area, trying to overpower it by own efforts, and need to focus onto Jesus, and the scriptures showing us who we now are in him, and the power of the Spirit to help us out!