Pastoral Qualification Quandary ??

[RAdam]

Of course it doesn't, but it does mean that there are legitimate questions that are going to be asked, and that means that he's not "blameless."

By your definition of "blameless" let me ask you a question: who then can preach? Who is qualified for the position of elder? I'd have to conclude, from your position, that nobody is.

 

[RAdam]

Managing the household has regards to the children. A man cannot control his wife. He can lead by example, he can encourage, he can show her scripture, he can pray for her, etc. But, at the end of the day he cannot make decisions for her on how to live her life. If a wife wants to committ adultery, can we blame the husband's lack of managing the household if he were doing all he could? If a wife just decides she is tired of being a preacher's wife and breaks the vows she made before God, how can we possibly hold the man responsible if he held up his end? If a non-preacher's wife decided to go out and commit murder, should the police arrest you for not "managing your house well". Do you see the ridiculous position you are taking here?

Basically, you are leaving a married preacher wide open for an attack from Satan. If he can't get to the man, he'll get to the wife and thus get him disqualified from the ministry, even if only for a time. If I uphold my end, fullfill my vows, love my wife as Christ loved the church, etc and my wife were to just up and leave, what else could I do? Beat her into staying? Thankfully the Lord has blessed me with a wonderful wife who I believe would never do that, but hypothetically if it happened I would be disqualified from the ministry (by your standards), even if only for a time, despite the fact that I personally did nothing wrong.

Managing the household has to do with what the husband does, not what the wife does. Being the husband of one wife has to do with keeping polygamy and flippant divorce out of the ministry. However, people see these things and create a strict law system out of them. I doubt Paul intended for this to be used that way.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Does the qualifications for a deacon's wife apply at all to this situation?

Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double -tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

If a Deacon's wife is expected to have all thse qualifications, is it reasonable to expect that a pastor's wife might also have to exhibit those qualities?

 

[gb93433]

Managing the household has regards to the children. A man cannot control his wife. He can lead by example, he can encourage, he can show her scripture, he can pray for her, etc. But, at the end of the day he cannot make decisions for her on how to live her life. If a wife wants to commit adultery, can we blame the husband's lack of managing the household if he were doing all he could? If a wife just decides she is tired of being a preacher's wife and breaks the vows she made before God, how can we possibly hold the man responsible if he held up his end?

It is not about who is responsible and holding just that person responsible. A rebellious wife can nullify everything a husband is trying to do. If a wife will not submit to her husband what kind of a message does that send to the congregation and those who know the pastor?

The problem today is that too many times pastoringh is seen as a job as though one were working as a garbage collector or someone working on an assembly line. Ministry is done as a team and is to provide and example to the flock. Imagine what it would be like for me ot tryt and dealw ith couples if I did not have my own house in order. My wife has dealt with rebellious wives because of some particular attitude often stemming from the relationship they have had witrh their dad. How could she provide an example of how a wife is to conduct herself is she does not herself well around me. If a lady sees my wife as rebellious and reads in the Bible that wives are to submit themselves to their husbands how does the example agree with the Bible? My wife attitude and actions ahve opend the doors many times. She has gotten several awards as employee of the hospital where she works. That has opened many doors for her. It has opened doors for herr to talk with Christians living in sin too. It is kind of like the conversation Nicodemus and Jesus had.

 

[saturneptune]

It is not about who is responsible and holding just that person responsible. A rebellious wife can nullify everything a husband is trying to do. If a wife will not submit to her husband what kind of a message does that send to the congregation and those who know the pastor?

The problem today is that too many times pastoringh is seen as a job as though one were working as a garbage collector or someone working on an assembly line. Ministry is done as a team and is to provide and example to the flock. Imagine what it would be like for me ot tryt and dealw ith couples if I did not have my own house in order. My wife has dealt with rebellious wives because of some particular attitude often stemming from the relationship they have had witrh their dad. How could she provide an example of how a wife is to conduct herself is she does not herself well around me. If a lady sees my wife as rebellious and reads in the Bible that wives are to submit themselves to their husbands how does the example agree with the Bible? My wife attitude and actions ahve opend the doors many times. She has gotten several awards as employee of the hospital where she works. That has opened many doors for her. It has opened doors for herr to talk with Christians living in sin too. It is kind of like the conversation Nicodemus and Jesus had.

It is easy for people who do not have the problem of a wayward wife to look down on those who do for the high standard you so mightily proclaim. You could have just as easily ended up in the same situation except for the grace of God. There is nothing special in your decision making or life that made the situation you are in today. It is God's Providence and that alone. I am sure the pastor when he got married had no idea of her true character. Maybe you should read the Scripture again. A man of one wife is still one wife until he is remarried, not at the point of divorce. He had his house in order as much as was possible for the situation.

OK, now you can go back to bashing the SBC.

 

[gb93433]

It is easy for people who do not have the problem of a wayward wife to look down on those who do for the high standard you so mightily proclaim. You could have just as easily ended up in the same situation except for the grace of God. There is nothing special in your decision making or life that made the situation you are in today. It is God's Providence and that alone.

How did you arrive at such a judgment?

It would help if you read Proverbs so you know what wisdom looks like.

Pastoring and having a wayward wife is not about looking down on anyone but about being an example to believers and non-believers. What you are assuming is the problem with cultural Christianity. When I was pastoring one church I got a regular diet when I first came about some of the deacons. I had to deal with problems every month about something stupid a deacon did in the past and present. I could have started a church much easier without the problems they brought in terms of their character. About five years later one of them committed suicide.

I am sure the pastor when he got married had no idea of her true character.

You are sure? How could you make such a judgment from what was posted?

A man of one wife is still one wife until he is remarried, not at the point of divorce. He had his house in order as much as was possible for the situation.

As possible is not good enough for a pastor. So is a drunk equipped ot pastor who has his house in order as much as is possible considering his condition?

When a man builds a building and it falls down that may not say anything about his character but it does about his ability as a builder. A pastor is building a church not a dog house. What he does has eternal vale and demand the highest example to others.

 

[RAdam]

But, again, you are holding the man responsible for the actions of his wife. A man could do everything right, set a proper example for his wife, love his wife as Christ loved the church, pray for her, counsel her - just really go all out fullfilling his responsibilities as a husband and the wife could still be rebellious and leave him. Basically, you are turning the qualifications Paul gave into a rigid set of laws from which to disqualify active preachers from their calling.

Notice that when Paul gave instructions to husbands, directly afterwards he gives instructions to wives. He tells the wives to be submissive to their husbands. If the responsibility for the wife's behavior lies solely upon me, why does he give this instruction to her? He should have told me to subject my wife unto myself and left it at that. In a marriage the man is responsible for upholding his role, and the woman hers.

 

[OldRegular]

Managing the household has regards to the children. A man cannot control his wife. He can lead by example, he can encourage, he can show her scripture, he can pray for her, etc. But, at the end of the day he cannot make decisions for her on how to live her life. If a wife wants to committ adultery, can we blame the husband's lack of managing the household if he were doing all he could? If a wife just decides she is tired of being a preacher's wife and breaks the vows she made before God, how can we possibly hold the man responsible if he held up his end? If a non-preacher's wife decided to go out and commit murder, should the police arrest you for not "managing your house well". Do you see the ridiculous position you are taking here?

Basically, you are leaving a married preacher wide open for an attack from Satan. If he can't get to the man, he'll get to the wife and thus get him disqualified from the ministry, even if only for a time. If I uphold my end, fullfill my vows, love my wife as Christ loved the church, etc and my wife were to just up and leave, what else could I do? Beat her into staying? Thankfully the Lord has blessed me with a wonderful wife who I believe would never do that, but hypothetically if it happened I would be disqualified from the ministry (by your standards), even if only for a time, despite the fact that I personally did nothing wrong.

Managing the household has to do with what the husband does, not what the wife does. Being the husband of one wife has to do with keeping polygamy and flippant divorce out of the ministry. However, people see these things and create a strict law system out of them. I doubt Paul intended for this to be used that way.

An excellent post RAdam and I agree with what you have said. I only wish others could see that their position on this matter is ?????

 

[saturneptune]

How did you arrive at such a judgment?

It would help if you read Proverbs so you know what wisdom looks like.

Pastoring and having a wayward wife is not about looking down on anyone but about being an example to believers and non-believers. What you are assuming is the problem with cultural Christianity. When I was pastoring one church I got a regular diet when I first came about some of the deacons. I had to deal with problems every month about something stupid a deacon did in the past and present. I could have started a church much easier without the problems they brought in terms of their character. About five years later one of them committed suicide.

You are sure? How could you make such a judgment from what was posted?

As possible is not good enough for a pastor. So is a drunk equipped ot pastor who has his house in order as much as is possible considering his condition?

When a man builds a building and it falls down that may not say anything about his character but it does about his ability as a builder. A pastor is building a church not a dog house. What he does has eternal vale and demand the highest example to others.

Well, I see you are an equal opportunity basher, deacons and the SBC. Now, back to the point. How can you compare a drunk who is responsible for his actions, to a rebelious wife, whom the pastor in question has no control over. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I know what wisdom looks like, and it is not in your posts. The poster above me said it much better than I can. Read his posts if you don't believe mine.

Too bad you had such a bad set of deacons, that they were not as perfect as you. Maybe they had to listen to your theology once too often.

 

[gb93433]

How can you compare a drunk who is responsible for his actions, to a rebellious wife, whom the pastor in question has no control over. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I believe what the Bible teaches and try not explain it away just because it may not fit what I had been told or thought but rather try to learn what is being taught.

Nobody has control over another but the couple does provide an example to others both in the church and to outsiders. Outsiders who have a great marriage can easily compare themselves to a poor example and exclaim that they have a better marriage than what the Christian pastor and his wife have. Should they conclude that is what the difference Christ makes? Explain how a couple can be an example to single people, divorced people, other couples and especially younger godly couples when one of the spouses is rebellious and the other is not? How can one take care of the church of God and have a rebellious wife and family? When a wife tends to discredit her husband she also tends to produce rebellion in the children and pulls against her husband's authority in the home. He is also her leader and pastor and when she is rebellious she is not respecting him nor is he her pastor. How is it possible for a man say to the church or other couples "Follow me in my leadership with my family to know what proper leadership looks like in a marriage"?

I know what wisdom looks like, and it is not in your posts.

I can see that you have wisdom and know what it looks like. I am not quite sure that it is godly wisdom. If you exercised more wisdom and better judgment in an earlier post of yours I am quite sure that you would have realized that there is no possible way you could know what me and my wife have gone through. That is unless you know something I do not. When I read your judgment it reminded me of Proverbs 29:20, "Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him."

It is possible that I am wrong and you can explain it to me, but I was unable to find godly wisdom agreeing with what you stated about yourself.

In an earlier post you made a judgment and in post #126 I asked you, "How did you arrive at such a judgment? " I was unable to find your reply.

Too bad you had such a bad set of deacons, that they were not as perfect as you.

James 1 teaches what biblical perfection is.

Maybe they had to listen to your theology once too often.

I am quite sure you are right. Those deacons had the same kind of attitude the Pharisees had toward Jesus. Some find that same kind of welcome by non-Christians and religious people when they go from house to house sharing the gospel.

Those deacons did not like it when the church stated seeing a lot of growth in numbers and in those who were being discipled. There were high school students and elementary students reaching out to their peer group.

When they started seeing a lot more dollars they decided to keep it for a rainy day" until it was the BFA's day to betray. Then they had none to keep or give away.

They listened to the theology of two previous conservative pastors I know. They just did not like it when I was the person who turned over "their tables." Sometimes God requires what we do not always like.

Anyone who expects to find ministry filled with sweet smelling flowers and chocolate candy should go into the flower and candy business.

 

[saturneptune]

I believe what the Bible teaches and try not explain it away just because it may not fit what I had been told or thought but rather try to learn what is being taught.

Nobody has control over another but the couple does provide an example to others both in the church and to outsiders. Outsiders who have a great marriage can easily compare themselves to a poor example and exclaim that they have a better marriage than what the Christian pastor and his wife have. Should they conclude that is what the difference Christ makes? Explain how a couple can be an example to single people, divorced people, other couples and especially younger godly couples when one of the spouses is rebellious and the other is not? How can one take care of the church of God and have a rebellious wife and family? When a wife tends to discredit her husband she also tends to produce rebellion in the children and pulls against her husband's authority in the home. He is also her leader and pastor and when she is rebellious she is not respecting him nor is he her pastor. How is it possible for a man say to the church or other couples "Follow me in my leadership with my family to know what proper leadership looks like in a marriage"?

I can see that you have wisdom and know what it looks like. I am not quite sure that it is godly wisdom. If you exercised more wisdom and better judgment in an earlier post of yours I am quite sure that you would have realized that there is no possible way you could know what me and my wife have gone through. That is unless you know something I do not. When I read your judgment it reminded me of Proverbs 29:20, "Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him."

It is possible that I am wrong and you can explain it to me, but I was unable to find godly wisdom agreeing with what you stated about yourself.

In an earlier post you made a judgment and in post #126 I asked you, "How did you arrive at such a judgment? " I was unable to find your reply.

James 1 teaches what biblical perfection is.

I am quite sure you are right. Those deacons had the same kind of attitude the Pharisees had toward Jesus. Some find that same kind of welcome by non-Christians and religious people when they go from house to house sharing the gospel.

Those deacons did not like it when the church stated seeing a lot of growth in numbers and in those who were being discipled. There were high school students and elementary students reaching out to their peer group.

When they started seeing a lot more dollars they decided to keep it for a rainy day" until it was the BFA's day to betray. Then they had none to keep or give away.

They listened to the theology of two previous conservative pastors I know. They just did not like it when I was the person who turned over "their tables." Sometimes God requires what we do not always like.

Anyone who expects to find ministry filled with sweet smelling flowers and chocolate candy should go into the flower and candy business.

Ok, so lets put the same standard of judgement on you as you do on the pastor with the rebellious wife. You are responsible for the atmosphere and leadership in that church, it is your responsibility to see that the deacons act like deacons and not businessmen from the 1950's. It is your reponsibility to see that they do not act like Pharisees, and are more Christ-like. What does that say about your ability to lead? What would an outside person say about how Christ is making a difference in that church?

Sounds pretty unreasonable, doesn't it? So do you when it comes to that pastor.

Oh, and as far as how I came to the conclusion about your marriage, about your wife not being rebellious, which is good for you and your job according to your standards, you said she had worked with rebellious women. Why would I think anything otherwise?

Quite frankly, I could care less what your opinion is about my Godly wisdom. My opinion is that it far exceeds yours, and my job is not the ministry.

 

[PastorMark]

I have been aware of this man's situation from the outside since before the breakup. I am becoming more aware of things that occurred behind the scenes as I counsel him. I know things about his ex-wife that I will not share here, but let's just say that I pray for her daily (including her salvation).

A couple of things to clarify:

First, a couple of posters stated that this man was in the wrong for staying in the Pastorate until the divorce was final. That is not the case. As I said in the original post, he stepped down as soon as his wife filed for the divorce. I did misrepresent one area without meaning to. I said he was "forced" from the ministry, which isn't entirely accurate. I should have said that there were members who believed that any divorce meant Pastoral disqualification without regard for cause, and because of that pressure he voluntarily stepped down. This was immediately after his wife filed, and more than a year before the divorce became final. He tried to reconcile throughout the divorce, but she made it plain she wanted nothing to do with any ministry at that point, and even said would never attend Church again and demanded that he agree to quit Church and never go back. He would not agree to forsake Church, nor the possibility of future ministry. He has remained faithful to Church, and is seeking to serve. She is out of Church, and is constantly trying to get her grown children to not attend. She has gotten, and encouraged the children to get, tatoos, piercings, etc. The courts make him pay her alimony. No child support since the children are grown.

Second, these two people were not from Christian families and neither were saved when they were married (28 years). Apparently one of the things that she used to get very upset about was when he would pray for salvation for her family members. Her mother and both her sisters are divorced, and they encouraged her to leave him. They refer to Christianity as a "cult." I have met all these people informally in public and have witnessed many odd things (lack of a better way to describe?).

I could go on, but I am trying to keep my feelings out of this so I can receive unbiased feedback. I will say that under the circumstances he did an amazing job keeping his marriage intact as long as he did. I understand the concern about whether he ruled his household well, or not, but I believe he honestly felt he was following the will of God in the ministry. Needless to say, this is a tough situation to counsel. I tend to agree that at this point he just needs to take time to heal and look for God's will in his life.

Still accepting comments to assist in counseling. Again, thanks to those who have posted helpful advice.

PastorMark.

 

[gb93433]

He tried to reconcile throughout the divorce, but she made it plain she wanted nothing to do with any ministry at that point, and even said would never attend Church again and demanded that he agree to quit Church and never go back. He would not agree to forsake Church, nor the possibility of future ministry. He has remained faithful to Church, and is seeking to serve. She is out of Church, and is constantly trying to get her grown children to not attend. She has gotten, and encouraged the children to get, tatoos, piercings, etc. The courts make him pay her alimony. No child support since the children are grown.

I would question her salvation based on her reaction to godly things.

 

[gb93433]

Quite frankly, I could care less what your opinion is about my Godly wisdom. My opinion is that it far exceeds yours, and my job is not the ministry.

Can you point out in the Bible where it says that we are to compare our wisdom to that of another? When I asked you twice in posts #126 and #130 about how you came to such a judgment you gave zero response. Why?

 

[saturneptune]

Can you point out in the Bible where it says that we are to compare our wisdom to that of another? When I asked you twice in posts #126 and #130 about how you came to such a judgment you gave zero response. Why?

I explained that in post 130, why dont you read it. Speaking of not explaining things, you did not answer why you are to be judged any differently than you judge this pastor in question. I see you have created a new dance. It is called the Baptist Pastor Side Step.

 

[gb93433]

Ok, so lets put the same standard of judgement on you as you do on the pastor with the rebellious wife. You are responsible for the atmosphere and leadership in that church, it is your responsibility to see that the deacons act like deacons and not businessmen from the 1950's. It is your reponsibility to see that they do not act like Pharisees, and are more Christ-like. What does that say about your ability to lead? What would an outside person say about how Christ is making a difference in that church?

I did not inspire the Bible. I just try to follow it in ministry and the business world. Leaders understand leadership. Those who are not leaders do not understand leadership. That is the way God made them. Any amount of trying to explain leadership to a person who is not a leader is futile.

 

[gb93433]

I explained that in post 130, why dont you read it. Speaking of not explaining things, you did not answer why you are to be judged any differently than you judge this pastor in question. I see you have created a new dance. It is called the Baptist Pastor Side Step.

Who posted #130?

 

[saturneptune]

My wife has dealt with rebellious wives because of some particular attitude often stemming from the relationship they have had witrh their dad. How could she provide an example of how a wife is to conduct herself is she does not herself well around me. If a lady sees my wife as rebellious and reads in the Bible that wives are to submit themselves to their husbands how does the example agree with the Bible? My wife attitude and actions ahve opend the doors many times. She has gotten several awards as employee of the hospital where she works. That has opened many doors for her. It has opened doors for herr to talk with Christians living in sin too. It is kind of like the conversation Nicodemus and Jesus had.

Just so you understand again, this statement of yours makes it clear that your house is in order, but it is in order because your wife is acting in a Christ like manner helping other women who are not. That puts your house in order, through no effort of your own, but the grace of God to give you such a wife. Now, does that make it clear how I came to that conclusion. You sit really pretty perched upon the high road, judging others who were not quite as blessed.

And my mistake, that was post 131.

 

[gb93433]

I explained that in post 130, why dont you read it. Speaking of not explaining things, you did not answer why you are to be judged any differently than you judge this pastor in question. I see you have created a new dance. It is called the Baptist Pastor Side Step.

The followin is what I asked you about.

"It is easy for people who do not have the problem of a wayward wife to look down on those who do for the high standard you so mightily proclaim. You could have just as easily ended up in the same situation except for the grace of God. There is nothing special in your decision making or life that made the situation you are in today. It is God's Providence and that alone."

I asked about how you were able to make such a judgment as you made.

 

[saturneptune]

I did not inspire the Bible. I just try to follow it in ministry and the business world. Leaders understand leadership. Those who are not leaders do not understand leadership. That is the way God made them. Any amount of trying to explain leadership to a person who is not a leader is futile.

You make excuses for your leadership and condemn the leadership of the other pastor in one breath.