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Pastors and degrees
- Thread starter Jesus is Lord
- Start date
JGrayhound
New Member
The lack of ecucation in the pastorate has long been the downfall of baptists....dating all the way back to the 1700s in England. For some reasons us baptists feel that it just does not matter that much.
Very sad.
BTW, the Apostles WERE trained...by Jesus, nonetheless, for three years. Paul was obviously well-trained in Judaism, then was trained again after his conversion.
here is really no basis for saying that proper theological training is unnecessary.
Very sad.
BTW, the Apostles WERE trained...by Jesus, nonetheless, for three years. Paul was obviously well-trained in Judaism, then was trained again after his conversion.
here is really no basis for saying that proper theological training is unnecessary.
First generation (apostles) were trained 3-4 years by Jesus
Next generation (Stephen, Philip, Timothy) were trained by those apostles and it took 10-14 years! (Don't think that Acts makes clear how many years intervened)
What about US? We need a LOT of formal and informal education for certain sure. We are a long way from Jesus and from the Apostles.
Next generation (Stephen, Philip, Timothy) were trained by those apostles and it took 10-14 years! (Don't think that Acts makes clear how many years intervened)
What about US? We need a LOT of formal and informal education for certain sure. We are a long way from Jesus and from the Apostles.
I thought until a few years ago that all pastors had a college degree and then a seminary degree.
This was probably due to fact that the church that I belonged to as a child and youth was very small and the training ground for young preachers attending the seminary. They would get their seminary degree and then move on to larger churches. One of these young men was the pastor of my church when I was in college. He and his wife were great influences in my life.
Yes, I believe that pastors should be educated, should have at least one college degree and a seminary degree.
I don't know why someone would insist that their doctors be educated and not their pastors.
This was probably due to fact that the church that I belonged to as a child and youth was very small and the training ground for young preachers attending the seminary. They would get their seminary degree and then move on to larger churches. One of these young men was the pastor of my church when I was in college. He and his wife were great influences in my life.
Yes, I believe that pastors should be educated, should have at least one college degree and a seminary degree.
I don't know why someone would insist that their doctors be educated and not their pastors.
I think schooling can help, or course it can hurt too. Depends on where you go and why you go to seminary.
How many good men's faith havve been shipwrecked by higher criticism, textual criticism and liberal theology? Even at "good seminaries."
Then, there are plenty of men with no calling, or holiness or fire, who merely fill their heads. Look at the number of men who graduate from smeinary who never enter the ministry. Or stay in the ministry only a couple years. The stats are discouraging.
First and foremost a man must be ablaze for Christ, 100% devoted and sacrificed. He must be committed to the fundamentals by faith, first and foremost (above intellectualism.)
Then, and only then, will seminary be good.
And there have been plenty of greatly used men with no seminary: AW Tozer, DL Moody, CH Spurgeon, Harry Ironside, G Campbell Morgan, Martyn LLoyd-Jones, Hudson Taylor, George Mueller, Cameron Townsend, Dawson Trotman. Of course, there would be an equally long list of "educated men."
How many good men's faith havve been shipwrecked by higher criticism, textual criticism and liberal theology? Even at "good seminaries."
Then, there are plenty of men with no calling, or holiness or fire, who merely fill their heads. Look at the number of men who graduate from smeinary who never enter the ministry. Or stay in the ministry only a couple years. The stats are discouraging.
First and foremost a man must be ablaze for Christ, 100% devoted and sacrificed. He must be committed to the fundamentals by faith, first and foremost (above intellectualism.)
Then, and only then, will seminary be good.
And there have been plenty of greatly used men with no seminary: AW Tozer, DL Moody, CH Spurgeon, Harry Ironside, G Campbell Morgan, Martyn LLoyd-Jones, Hudson Taylor, George Mueller, Cameron Townsend, Dawson Trotman. Of course, there would be an equally long list of "educated men."
JGrayhound
New Member
That list of men you mentioned were all well-educated, just not formally educated.
Sadly, there are very few men in ministry today who are as well-trained as they were.
I would hope no one would try and equate themselves with that group of men now, or use them as an excuse to be an ignorant minister (as they were certainly not ignorant, nor would they be happy with the education of our modern pastors).
Seminary is absolutely necessary today, and I am deeply saddened when people say otherwise.
Sadly, there are very few men in ministry today who are as well-trained as they were.
I would hope no one would try and equate themselves with that group of men now, or use them as an excuse to be an ignorant minister (as they were certainly not ignorant, nor would they be happy with the education of our modern pastors).
Seminary is absolutely necessary today, and I am deeply saddened when people say otherwise.
Who's advocating ignorant ministers? Not me.
My father was a minister and a sem. grad. My brother is a sem grad (though not a minister.)
As a general principle, seminary is beneficial.
But a seminary degree is not an absolute requirement. Rather, education in the Word and the Spirit is an absolute requirement.
People often will say," Well you're not Tozer, or Spurgeon, or whoever." That's true. But they are not a one-time deal. God still raises up many, many men outside the "seminary system" who are powerfully used to advance the Kingdom.
The Calvary Chapel movement is an example of this. Most of their pastor's have no seminary degree but almost all are incredibly powerful, Godly men. In particular, check out Greg Laurie.
My father was a minister and a sem. grad. My brother is a sem grad (though not a minister.)
As a general principle, seminary is beneficial.
But a seminary degree is not an absolute requirement. Rather, education in the Word and the Spirit is an absolute requirement.
People often will say," Well you're not Tozer, or Spurgeon, or whoever." That's true. But they are not a one-time deal. God still raises up many, many men outside the "seminary system" who are powerfully used to advance the Kingdom.
The Calvary Chapel movement is an example of this. Most of their pastor's have no seminary degree but almost all are incredibly powerful, Godly men. In particular, check out Greg Laurie.
Most here would not think of the Calvary Chapel movement as a good example of "uneducated men".
Think that the rise of Bible Colleges and the "I don't need any more book larnin'" movement has hurt the ministry.
How many of those young, poorly educated men go out and either "parrot" a famous guru or go off into bad doctrine (like onlyism) because they have not got the wisdom and tools that a solid education (or mentoring) would provide?
Think that the rise of Bible Colleges and the "I don't need any more book larnin'" movement has hurt the ministry.
How many of those young, poorly educated men go out and either "parrot" a famous guru or go off into bad doctrine (like onlyism) because they have not got the wisdom and tools that a solid education (or mentoring) would provide?
The books, sermons and radio broadcasts that are available to the public is much more than ever before.
The depth in a pastor's sermons show and how they arrive at an interpretation shows as well. A few years ago my brother in law who was not a Christian at the time started going to a Calvary Chapel Church near his home. When I came to visit he and my sister, he started aasking me about some questions he had about what the pastor said in some sermons. I agreed with him and not the uneducated pastor. So they changed churches. He became a believer at the next church. The pastor's lack of skill and education caused my brother in law to question the interpretation of the passages he preached on. The general population may not always know but the person who is educated will see right through. Ignorance may not always be apparent but it will show eventually.
You wouldn't hire a man who knows little about building a home to buold a new home for you, so why would you knowingly sit under a pastor who needs to be taught. In seminary there is a lot of interaction among students and teachers that the ordinary person would not know where to look to get the information. In seminary you will be challenged by others who may hold a diferent view or have different experiences.
The depth in a pastor's sermons show and how they arrive at an interpretation shows as well. A few years ago my brother in law who was not a Christian at the time started going to a Calvary Chapel Church near his home. When I came to visit he and my sister, he started aasking me about some questions he had about what the pastor said in some sermons. I agreed with him and not the uneducated pastor. So they changed churches. He became a believer at the next church. The pastor's lack of skill and education caused my brother in law to question the interpretation of the passages he preached on. The general population may not always know but the person who is educated will see right through. Ignorance may not always be apparent but it will show eventually.
You wouldn't hire a man who knows little about building a home to buold a new home for you, so why would you knowingly sit under a pastor who needs to be taught. In seminary there is a lot of interaction among students and teachers that the ordinary person would not know where to look to get the information. In seminary you will be challenged by others who may hold a diferent view or have different experiences.
Who said that Calvary Chapel is an example of "uneducated men?" Not me.
I would say they are very well educated.
What I did say was they came from outside the "seminary system" meaning they do not typically have MDivs etc.
As I also said earlier, seminary education is generally beneficial. Of course, it depends highly on where you go to sem.
How about Yale Divinity School? Princeton? How about Notre Dame? All Catholic priests have seminary degrees, so they should be qualified, right? How about a Lutheran or Anglican seminary?
I would say they are very well educated.
What I did say was they came from outside the "seminary system" meaning they do not typically have MDivs etc.
As I also said earlier, seminary education is generally beneficial. Of course, it depends highly on where you go to sem.
How about Yale Divinity School? Princeton? How about Notre Dame? All Catholic priests have seminary degrees, so they should be qualified, right? How about a Lutheran or Anglican seminary?
JGrayhound
New Member
JohnB, I think the issue is less with you and more with the mindset today that theological training is not neccessary.
No one is attacking you, or at least I wasn't.
My problem is with the people whio assume that you can be an effective minister or teacher of the Word without proper training. I have had people tell me that I don't need seminary, they are deluded and wrong.
The SBC (and Baptists of all sorts) have long been plagued with this mindset, and it is what has severely wounded us as a 'thinking people'. Theological conservatives must breed thinking, educated theological conservatives. We have not, and we have suffered the effects of that. I think it is changing, and hopefully we will reap the benefits of a learned clergy who love God and can accurately teach His Word.
No one is attacking you, or at least I wasn't.
My problem is with the people whio assume that you can be an effective minister or teacher of the Word without proper training. I have had people tell me that I don't need seminary, they are deluded and wrong.
The SBC (and Baptists of all sorts) have long been plagued with this mindset, and it is what has severely wounded us as a 'thinking people'. Theological conservatives must breed thinking, educated theological conservatives. We have not, and we have suffered the effects of that. I think it is changing, and hopefully we will reap the benefits of a learned clergy who love God and can accurately teach His Word.
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
My problem is with the people whio assume that you can be an effective minister or teacher of the Word without proper training.
Never assumed it. I just don't agree with your connotation that a man who does not hold a seminary degree is an ignorant minister .
As I have stated elsewhere, not everyone can just up and drop everything to run off to seminary. If I could, I would. But to do so would jepordize my family at this present time. However, there are few who would call me ignorant, besides myself.
I know how short my knowledge falls, and the number of occasions that I am at a loss. Now, those around me don't know it, because they don't know the difference (the 'ignorance factor', if you will...most congregations suffer from it). But I know it, and I worry about it. I want to rightly divide the word, not spew forth a mixed hash of bible verses and personal opinion.
I guess it's that I take offense when I feel that someone is looking down their nose at me because I am not in seminary, or am not a seminary graduate. If I am in the wrong, please forgive me. If I am not, then consider the place of those less fortunate than yourself.
In Christ,
Trotter
Never assumed it. I just don't agree with your connotation that a man who does not hold a seminary degree is an ignorant minister .
As I have stated elsewhere, not everyone can just up and drop everything to run off to seminary. If I could, I would. But to do so would jepordize my family at this present time. However, there are few who would call me ignorant, besides myself.
I know how short my knowledge falls, and the number of occasions that I am at a loss. Now, those around me don't know it, because they don't know the difference (the 'ignorance factor', if you will...most congregations suffer from it). But I know it, and I worry about it. I want to rightly divide the word, not spew forth a mixed hash of bible verses and personal opinion.
I guess it's that I take offense when I feel that someone is looking down their nose at me because I am not in seminary, or am not a seminary graduate. If I am in the wrong, please forgive me. If I am not, then consider the place of those less fortunate than yourself.
In Christ,
Trotter
JGrayhound
New Member
Again, not a reference to you Trotter...just "those people" in general. Like the several men at my home church who told me I didn't need seminary, or a BCM director, etc.
BTW, there are plenty of "ignorant" ministers who HAVE a seminary degree. it is not the piece of paper to which this discussion is primarily focused, it is the proper theological training that a minister MUST have.
BTW (pt.2), I am not looking down my nose at anyone, nor do I think anyone whohas posted has done so. I am just giving my assessment of the theological and educational state of baptists, and I think this is a major problem.
BTW, there are plenty of "ignorant" ministers who HAVE a seminary degree. it is not the piece of paper to which this discussion is primarily focused, it is the proper theological training that a minister MUST have.
BTW (pt.2), I am not looking down my nose at anyone, nor do I think anyone whohas posted has done so. I am just giving my assessment of the theological and educational state of baptists, and I think this is a major problem.
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
I agree with you, JGreyhound. Like I said, I took offense at the "tone" of the post.
Yes, there are a lot of "ignorant" ministers around today, with a large percenage of them Baptists.
I have been told that, "You don't need no piece of paper to tell you what you know." True, I don't. But what that paper stands for, that IS important.
I will not say that I will never be able to attend seminary. I would be there tomorrow if it were possible. Not to impress anyone, but for my own peace of mind.
In Christ,
Trotter
Yes, there are a lot of "ignorant" ministers around today, with a large percenage of them Baptists.
I have been told that, "You don't need no piece of paper to tell you what you know." True, I don't. But what that paper stands for, that IS important.
I will not say that I will never be able to attend seminary. I would be there tomorrow if it were possible. Not to impress anyone, but for my own peace of mind.
In Christ,
Trotter
One of the major problems with a discussion such as this is that "seminary training" and "proper training" are often equated as the same thing. There are men who have been to seminary and men who have not been to seminary who both have been "properly trained" to minister; there are men who have been to seminary and men who have not been to seminary who have not been "properly trained" to minister.
The Bible is clear that a minister must meet certain qualifications, which includes being apt (able or ready) to teach. If a church fails to require this, they are on unscriptural grounds. If a church requires more than this (e.g. that they must become apt to teach by having a specific piece of paper), they are on unscriptural grounds.
JGrayhound
New Member
rlvaughn, I agree...and I think that has been made pretty clear in this discussion.
The problem is not with that premise...we all agree on that. The problem is with the idea that one not need theological training. In this day and age there are very few places outside of seminary to receive training. You do not receive proper training just by reading a lot. The anti-seminary sentiment is one that says "you don't need to be theologically trained, you just need to 'love Jesus'".
The problem is not with that premise...we all agree on that. The problem is with the idea that one not need theological training. In this day and age there are very few places outside of seminary to receive training. You do not receive proper training just by reading a lot. The anti-seminary sentiment is one that says "you don't need to be theologically trained, you just need to 'love Jesus'".
Yes, there are some who argue against training, but many who are accused of such do not. To stand against adding unscriptural requirements to the Biblical qualifications often gets one accused of being against education. And though denials are always put in place, every time this issue comes up on the board, some of those who favor formal seminary training make it clear that they place a premium on WHERE one becomes apt to teach.
wow, getting into the fray on this one... 
I, like many around here, am in seminary right now. I love it here. Now the issue certainly has been broached by some of my peers as to the degree we are seeking and its place in our calling.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the basic MDiv at SWBTS there are 2 tracks (plus an advanced track, but I'll leave out) which a student can pursue to get an MDiv. Track 1 is the "Biblical Languages" track and requires twelve hours of Greek and six hours of Hebrew. Track 2 is "nonlanguage" and only requires an initial course in both Greek an Hebrew. (Thankfully our new president is erradicating track 2 and requiring a third semester of Hebrew for the MDiv!) Now the discussion that embroils the campus is whether or not a pastor needs to have all these languages to affirm him calling. It is my opinion, and the opinion of several of my friends, that any ministry student going into the pastorate will be ill equipped to handle the duties of that pastorate without the proper training in the languages.
That is really where I am at on this issue. I could careless whether or not you go to a seminary or Bible college. Personally I am more for a mentorship/apprenticeship situation for learning how to do ministry from a compenent pastor than I am about going to seminary which simply turns out people able to get a degree. Yet the structure of the courses at seminary provide a good mix of educational background for one preparing for ministry.
Now it is worthy to note that when Paul penned the qualifications for ministry in Timothy and Titus there were no systemmatic schools of theology for Christians (though I suggest the Jewish schools of Paul's day are more rigorous than anything we can imagine and he was one of their finest products...says something about his qualifications.) Yet the pastors of some early churches before the establishment of a structural learning system (this probably takes us into the late first millenium) would have been thoroughly trained through personal study, knowledge of the languages of the texts, and exposure through an intense mentorship/apprenticeship program with a qualified, established pastor.
It is a shame that most American congregations don't have the spiritual maturity to require their pastor to have competent grasp of basic theological, textual, and expository methods. It is a commentary on the laxidazical attitude of much of Christendom in North America when a pastor can get up and preach a sermon that has no deep or well founded textual insights and is simply some "happy go lucky" sermon that emotes some ridiculous point which neither strengthens the saints nor provides for their continued sanctification. (Now I'm not saying anyone around here is like that, I don't know enough of you make such a statement.)
Seminary helps train pastors to be worthy of their calling. Yet if a pastor can adequately demonstrate his competency in pastoral roles (theological, textual, expositional, relational, etc.) than certainly he is a qualified. Far too often though even some of our seminary trained ministry professionals don't have the comptency for the task to which they have been called. I guess it comes down to the voracity with which one pursues this higher calling and shows themselves equipped before God and man.
Just some thoughts, if you made it this far I thank you.
note: edited for grammatical problems
I, like many around here, am in seminary right now. I love it here. Now the issue certainly has been broached by some of my peers as to the degree we are seeking and its place in our calling.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the basic MDiv at SWBTS there are 2 tracks (plus an advanced track, but I'll leave out) which a student can pursue to get an MDiv. Track 1 is the "Biblical Languages" track and requires twelve hours of Greek and six hours of Hebrew. Track 2 is "nonlanguage" and only requires an initial course in both Greek an Hebrew. (Thankfully our new president is erradicating track 2 and requiring a third semester of Hebrew for the MDiv!) Now the discussion that embroils the campus is whether or not a pastor needs to have all these languages to affirm him calling. It is my opinion, and the opinion of several of my friends, that any ministry student going into the pastorate will be ill equipped to handle the duties of that pastorate without the proper training in the languages.
That is really where I am at on this issue. I could careless whether or not you go to a seminary or Bible college. Personally I am more for a mentorship/apprenticeship situation for learning how to do ministry from a compenent pastor than I am about going to seminary which simply turns out people able to get a degree. Yet the structure of the courses at seminary provide a good mix of educational background for one preparing for ministry.
Now it is worthy to note that when Paul penned the qualifications for ministry in Timothy and Titus there were no systemmatic schools of theology for Christians (though I suggest the Jewish schools of Paul's day are more rigorous than anything we can imagine and he was one of their finest products...says something about his qualifications.) Yet the pastors of some early churches before the establishment of a structural learning system (this probably takes us into the late first millenium) would have been thoroughly trained through personal study, knowledge of the languages of the texts, and exposure through an intense mentorship/apprenticeship program with a qualified, established pastor.
It is a shame that most American congregations don't have the spiritual maturity to require their pastor to have competent grasp of basic theological, textual, and expository methods. It is a commentary on the laxidazical attitude of much of Christendom in North America when a pastor can get up and preach a sermon that has no deep or well founded textual insights and is simply some "happy go lucky" sermon that emotes some ridiculous point which neither strengthens the saints nor provides for their continued sanctification. (Now I'm not saying anyone around here is like that, I don't know enough of you make such a statement.)
Seminary helps train pastors to be worthy of their calling. Yet if a pastor can adequately demonstrate his competency in pastoral roles (theological, textual, expositional, relational, etc.) than certainly he is a qualified. Far too often though even some of our seminary trained ministry professionals don't have the comptency for the task to which they have been called. I guess it comes down to the voracity with which one pursues this higher calling and shows themselves equipped before God and man.
Just some thoughts, if you made it this far I thank you.
note: edited for grammatical problems
j_barner2000
Member
The impression I am getting is that a man has to go to a school to be competent as a pastor. I have a problem with that contension. I am quite capable of doing many things that require skills without spending years in a school to learn them while other men have needed to go to school to acquire the same competencies.
I have been training under experienced pastors for the last 4 years and am studying through Seminary Extension independant study institute. I feel that is the path that the Lord has laid out for me to follow.
For a man to tell me that unless I follow the path he feels is appropriate, that I am unprepared and ignorant is simply preposterous.
I do not see anyone saying that a man who is called by God needs no education. It appears that there are 2 positions that some folks believe we can have... Either be trained in a formal school setting or be ignorant and uneducated. I beleive there is a third option... Be trained by a competent pastoral staff. In fact, formal education often falls short in the experiential arena...
But, the true qualification for ministry is a calling from God. However God prepares a man for ministry is God's decision.
I have been training under experienced pastors for the last 4 years and am studying through Seminary Extension independant study institute. I feel that is the path that the Lord has laid out for me to follow.
For a man to tell me that unless I follow the path he feels is appropriate, that I am unprepared and ignorant is simply preposterous.
I do not see anyone saying that a man who is called by God needs no education. It appears that there are 2 positions that some folks believe we can have... Either be trained in a formal school setting or be ignorant and uneducated. I beleive there is a third option... Be trained by a competent pastoral staff. In fact, formal education often falls short in the experiential arena...
But, the true qualification for ministry is a calling from God. However God prepares a man for ministry is God's decision.