Paul and Festus

[AndyMartin]

"And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.” But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words. For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe.” And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?” And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.” (Acts 26:24-29)

Reading these words, which form part of Paul's defense on his imprisonment, we can see the heart and mind of God working regarding the salvation of the lost, which was the main purpose of Paul's ministry

The last verse interested me, which is Paul's response to Festus. Paul here declares that it was his (and no doubt God's) desire, that ALL who were there present during his conversation with Festus, were saved, like he was, but not bound in chains. To my mind, this is a very clear passage of the desire of God through Paul, to see the salvation of ALL sinners, and not just the "elect", as some contend. Without reading into what Paul says, and talking his words as they are intended, it seems very clear that he could not have believed, that God did not desire ALL without exception be saved.

Lets be civil in our responses

 

[MennoSota]

"And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.” But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words. For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe.” And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?” And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.” (Acts 26:24-29)

Reading these words, which form part of Paul's defense on his imprisonment, we can see the heart and mind of God working regarding the salvation of the lost, which was the main purpose of Paul's ministry

The last verse interested me, which is Paul's response to Festus. Paul here declares that it was his (and no doubt God's) desire, that ALL who were there present during his conversation with Festus, were saved, like he was, but not bound in chains. To my mind, this is a very clear passage of the desire of God through Paul, to see the salvation of ALL sinners, and not just the "elect", as some contend. Without reading into what Paul says, and talking his words as they are intended, it seems very clear that he could not have believed, that God did not desire ALL without exception be saved.

Lets be civil in our responses

I'm not sure how your mind works, Andy, but if God wanted all to be saved, Paul would not be hoping that all would be saved. Paul would know that all would be saved because God would save all. There would be no wondering...unless we assume that Paul questioned the authority of God to will all to be saved?

Andy, you have a circular dilemma that you need to resolve.
When a person, such as Calvin, understood God's authority to sovereignly do as He willed, that person will quickly recognize that the English word "all" must not be universal, but must be qualified by the context of the passage.

Look at your passage and ask how powerful is your God if he doesn't save all. Is God weak or is God a liar? The third option must be that the word "all" is not universal to every human. If not to all humans then to what subset does the "all" apply?

 

[AndyMartin]

I'm not sure how your mind works, Andy, but if God wanted all to be saved, Paul would not be hoping that all would be saved. Paul would know that all would be saved because God would save all. There would be no wondering...unless we assume that Paul questioned the authority of God to will all to be saved?

Andy, you have a circular dilemma that you need to resolve.
When a person, such as Calvin, understood God's authority to sovereignly do as He willed, that person will quickly recognize that the English word "all" must not be universal, but must be qualified by the context of the passage.

Look at your passage and ask how powerful is your God if he doesn't save all. Is God weak or is God a liar? The third option must be that the word "all" is not universal to every human. If not to all humans then to what subset does the "all" apply?

Ah, you seem to be arguing from predestination, am I right? This then is a problem, as I see the Bible as saying that God wills that none perish. rejection of Jesus Christ and the Gospel concerning Him is what damns a person, not that God did not "prechose" then

 

[MennoSota]

Ah, you seem to be arguing from predestination, am I right? This then is a problem, as I see the Bible as saying that God wills that none perish. rejection of Jesus Christ and the Gospel concerning Him is what damns a person, not that God did not "prechose" then

Yet, you don't resolve your problem. Either the human will is greater than God's will or God's will is greater than the human will. Which one is it?

 

[Alcott]

When was Paul ever on Gunsmoke?

 

[MennoSota]

Yet, you don't resolve your problem. Either the human will is greater than God's will or God's will is greater than the human will. Which one is it?

@ AndyMartin, care to answer?

 

[TCassidy]

Rejection of Jesus Christ and the Gospel concerning Him is what damns a person, not that God did not "prechose" then.

I always thought it was sin that damns a person. Have I been wrong all those decades?

 

[AndyMartin]

I always thought it was sin that damns a person. Have I been wrong all those decades?

No, you are right, the greatest sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ. here are Christ's own words:

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged" (John 16:7-11)

 

[TCassidy]

So, if rejecting Jesus is the sin that damns, how is that sin ever paid for?

If it was paid for on the cross then it is already forgiven.

If it was not paid for on the cross, there is no payment for that sin.

If you are saying it was paid for on the cross you are preaching universalism.

If you are saying it was not paid for on the cross you are preaching that nobody can ever be saved.

If you are saying that all you have to do is stop sinning that sin then you are preaching that the way of salvation is to just stop sinning.

 

[AndyMartin]

So, if rejecting Jesus is the sin that damns, how is that sin ever paid for?

If it was paid for on the cross then it is already forgiven.

If it was not paid for on the cross, there is no payment for that sin.

If you are saying it was paid for on the cross you are preaching universalism.

If you are saying it was not paid for on the cross you are preaching that nobody can ever be saved.

If you are saying that all you have to do is stop sinning that sin then you are preaching that the way of salvation is to just stop sinning.

It has been paid for by Jesus Christ dying on the cross for a world of lost sinners, like you and I. It is only after a sinner confesses their sins, and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, that they can be forgiven. Jesus Himself says in Luke 13, "But unless you repent, you too will all perish" (verses 3, 5). It is that simple! Yes, "universalism" as in the "extent of the Atonement", which it must be, if as Mark 16:15 says that we must preach the Gospel of salvation to the entire world, or else, it is an insincere offer. But this is not the same as "universal salvation".

 

[TCassidy]

It has been paid for by Jesus Christ dying on the cross for a world of lost sinners, like you and I.

So all sins have been forgiven on the cross. So how does anyone ever go to hell?

It is only after a sinner confesses their sins, and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, that they can be forgiven.

But I thought the sins were paid for on the cross. If so they cannot be held against the sinner. That would be double jeopardy. Christ paid and then the sinner paid.

Yes, "universalism" as in the "extent of the Atonement", which it must be, if as Mark 16:15 says that we must preach the Gospel of salvation to the entire world, or else, it is an insincere offer. But this is not the same as "universal salvation".

Can't have it both ways. If all sins have been dealt with on the cross then all sinners will be in heaven. If, on the other hand, the atonement is only applied to God's elect, then those sins not atoned for will send that sinner to hell.

It seems to me you have created your own paradox.

 

[MennoSota]

So all sins have been forgiven on the cross. So how does anyone ever go to hell?

But I thought the sins were paid for on the cross. If so they cannot be held against the sinner. That would be double jeopardy. Christ paid and then the sinner paid.

Can't have it both ways. If all sins have been dealt with on the cross then all sinners will be in heaven. If, on the other hand, the atonement is only applied to God's elect, then those sins not atoned for will send that sinner to hell.

It seems to me you have created your own paradox.

Indeed.

@AndyMartin, doesn't resolve his problem. Either the human will is greater than God's will or God's will is greater than the human will. Which one is it?

 

[AndyMartin]

So all sins have been forgiven on the cross. So how does anyone ever go to hell?

But I thought the sins were paid for on the cross. If so they cannot be held against the sinner. That would be double jeopardy. Christ paid and then the sinner paid.

Can't have it both ways. If all sins have been dealt with on the cross then all sinners will be in heaven. If, on the other hand, the atonement is only applied to God's elect, then those sins not atoned for will send that sinner to hell.

It seems to me you have created your own paradox.

My friend, it is like a doctor that has the cure for your ailment. Unless you go to him and take it and use it, you will not get better. Jesus has paid the price once for all, for the sins of mankind, which are only "applied" to the repentant sinner

 

[AndyMartin]

Indeed.

@AndyMartin, doesn't resolve his problem. Either the human will is greater than God's will or God's will is greater than the human will. Which one is it?

I see no problem. You are trying to create one that says something that the Bible does not. God indeed is Sovereign, but has chosen in His Wisdom to use the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. Man who is created with a free-will by God to either accept or reject the Gospel, must respond as they desire. We are not a bunch of machines that simply do what God has "preordained", as God is not the author of sin.

 

[MennoSota]

I see no problem. You are trying to create one that says something that the Bible does not. God indeed is Sovereign, but has chosen in His Wisdom to use the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. Man who is created with a free-will by God to either accept or reject the Gospel, must respond as they desire. We are not a bunch of machines that simply do what God has "preordained", as God is not the author of sin.

You are desperately trying to ride the fence.

Either the human will supercedes God's will or God's will supercedes the human will. Which one is it?

 

[TCassidy]

My friend, it is like a doctor that has the cure for your ailment. Unless you go to him and take it and use it, you will not get better. Jesus has paid the price once for all, for the sins of mankind, which are only "applied" to the repentant sinner

So salvation is based on what we do (go to the doctor) rather than what Christ did for us?

 

[AndyMartin]

So salvation is based on what we do (go to the doctor) rather than what Christ did for us?

Both. Christ has made the Atonement, and the sinner needs to go to Him in repentance to accept this.

 

[AndyMartin]

You are desperately trying to ride the fence.

Either the human will supercedes God's will or God's will supercedes the human will. Which one is it?

You have my response

 

[MennoSota]

You have my response

Your response is a cop out and non-answer.
I suspect you refuse to answer because you can see the problem, but your pride won't admit to being wrong.

 

[MennoSota]

Here's the interpretation I get from you, @AndyMartin.
You are saying that God is sovereign, but God purposely makes His will subservient to the human will so that man's will determines his own fate in salvation. God can do nothing to override the human will and must let man rule his own life. If man is going to be saved then man has to figure it out on his own and willfully choose his own fate. God has hamstrung Himself by bowing to the will of man.

That seems to be your argument.

Can you provide biblical support for God making His sovereign will subservient to the human will?