That is the simplicity of the Gospel that many miss...that is why He came, because there was nothing we could or can do to reconcile ourselves to God.
God bless.
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Paul and the Dispensation of Grace
- Thread starter InTheLight
- Start date
That is the simplicity of the Gospel that many miss...that is why He came, because there was nothing we could or can do to reconcile ourselves to God.
God bless.
And that is not what the writer presents. He presents unbelief as the cause for not entering His rest. That is the parallel he draws between the Children of Israel and the one associating him/herself with Christ in his day.
As far as misrepresenting you, sorry, no. It is only the last few posts you have implied no loss of salvation, so if you are going to use these passages to suggest that believers are being chastened, in the future...try to be more clear about that.
Nevertheless, you are still trying to make believers out of unbelievers.
They are not.
The whole point is "This is why they didn't enter into His rest, do not make the same mistake."
Where is the Passover in Numbers 23?
How do you negate a monumental witness in Scripture, and the testimony of the Writer of Hebrews?
We see in the actual account, as well as references to the Wilderness wanderings that Israel sinned against God. At that time God beheld iniquity, He saw perverseness, and because of their idolatry and sin they did not enter into His rest.
The writer simply makes the point..."Don't you do it too."
Hebrews 3:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
He is not saying "Live a good Christian life, he is saying, "Hear God. Do not have an evil heart of unbelief as your fathers did, for which reason they did not enter into His rest."
God bless.
You're changing, adding to, what's presented in the text. Period. You're forcing what YOU WANT it to say.
The text describes these as 'partakers of the Spirit' and 'sanctified by the blood of the covenant'.
The superb type of the Exodus Generation used in Hebrews totally supports that these are 'Holy Brethren', 'His Redeemed', 'His People', that are in danger of an evil heart of unbelief, NOT the unregenerate.
Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18:4,5
Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2:40
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26, 27
Thus the severity of consequences for 'turning back in their hearts unto Egypt'.
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It is the contemporaries of the Writer, not the ones in the Wilderness...in danger of an evil heart of unbelief.
Those in the Wilderness are clearly identified:
Hebrews 3:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
You add "made partakers of the Holy Spirit" (which is not the equivalent of being born again, many through history have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit) and "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" (which in ch.10 refers to Christ, as when believers are sanctified they are made perfect/complete for ever) to the text.
Chapters 3 and 4 make it clear that those who fell were unbelievers, not those of faith.
God bless.
No where in all your bloviating have you shown His rest to be synonymous with eternal redemption.
Unless of course you hold to redemption through our labors, salvation by works.
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That would be the Scripture posted right after this statement you quote in Post #32.
Here it is again:
Hebrews 4:2-4, 8-11
King James Version (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
The Rest we have in Christ is likened to God resting from His Work of Creation.
Does get any more finisheder.
Just trying to replicate your catering to vocabulary level...
*...bloviating, he said bloviating, lol...*
You are ignoring...
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
This Rest is secured through faith and belief, and the writer exhorts his Hebrew brethren not to follow the example of the unbelieving and faithless in the Wilderness.
You are trying to impose into the text that which is not there, and until you acknowledge this error Hebrews will avail you nothing. It should be one of the greatest sources of joy for you, yet you take this Book, called by some the Holy of Holies of the New Testament...and seek to beat people over the head with it. To instill fear rather than joy.
Seems a little perverse to me.
Those in view are unbelievers (in the Wilderness) and potential unbelievers (in the writer's day) who are having difficulty embracing the New Covenant.
God bless.
Ok. It requires labor on our part to enter into it, which jives perfectly with the type presented in Hebrews. Those [already] redeemed from the House of Bondage had to believe the good tidings that the Land of Milk & Honey was there's for the taking, and then labor to actually go in and take it
...which you excel in. Are you this windy in real life?
Yes. It requires effort on our part to possess it. Our eternal redemption was accomplished totally by Christ alone. We were totally passive in it.
No. You are. No where is His rest equated with eternal redemption.
Yes. They were His people and were faithless, yet He remained faithful, even in His wrath, and carried and preserved them through all their wanderings.
Those who were falling away in hebrews were NOT the same as those falling away from Grace in galatians, as the writer in hebrews tells us that there were NOT saved, but merely professors of faith, while paul in galatians was adressing saved persons, and telling them that if you keep trying to become sactified by your own efforts and keeping of the law, that would be cutting yourself off from means God gave to us to grow in the faith once saved!
The point the writer focuses on is after one has entered into that rest, which is not accomplished through the striving, but through faith and belief.
Those who entered not into the physical rest available to the Hebrew people in that day entered not because of unbelief. They had no faith in the Word preached to them, which was not the Gospel of Christ, but the gospel of the truth of God's Word. It is God and His Word they did not believe in.
Show me the Children of Israel "laboring" to enter in. By picking up bread supplied to them?
They did not enter in because they sat down and refused to move, they did not enter because they did not...
...believe God.
That is why they created idols to worship. That was their sin...
...unbelief.
Much, much worse...
You are teaching two entirely different concepts here.
And none of it is based on the text of Hebrews. It is based on the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings) and advocated by L.O.S.Ers. (loss of salvation embracers).
There is no effort man can effect that can gain for him eternal redemption.
That is why Christ had to die on the Cross.
So the writer is speaking of something entirely different? How sad you cannot see eternal redemption in this...
Hebrews 4:8-11
King James Version (KJV)
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
So what effort, what work do you see the writer including in those who have ceased from their own works? In view is the believer entering into the Rest of Christ (v.10)...Who has rested from His Work/s.
The Writer is speaking to Hebrews, and while he is addressing a general audience of Christians, the Book is directed at the whole of the Hebrew People. "Let us" refers to Hebrews, not Christians, for he has just stated the Christians have already entered into that Rest through belief:
Hebrews 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
In view is a contrast between believers and unbelievers. How you are not seeing that is beyond me. The exhortation is not to replicate the error of those who fell in the Wilderness. It is still a warning against unbelief...
...not living a poor Christian life.
It is a contrast between being eternally redeemed and being lost.
Hebrews 4:8-11
King James Version (KJV)
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
This is a reference to Joshua, and his (the Writer) point is that the rest promised those brought out of Egypt should not be confused with the Rest we attain in Christ.
Laboring to enter in is through belief, not works which men do. Paul makes it clear no man will be saved through works.
No, KR...they were unbelievers who fell in the desert.
They were rebellious. They rebelled. They had an evil heart of unbelief. They believed not. They were faithless. They did not believe God and His Word.
Just how many indications does the writer have to make that they were unbelievers for you to understand that?
And answer this for me: are you saying the Rest in ch.4 does not speak about Eternal Redemption? It is a side issue with the completion the writer teaches throughout the Book?
Answer that. I dare you. I double-dog dare you, I triple...
...oh, sorry, bloviating again...
God bless.
beameup
Member
As long as there remained a viable opportunity for the Nation of Israel to repent, the Gospel of the Circumcision had to be preached. Peter, James, Jude, and John, and Paul's (anonymous) epistle and the Gospels focus on Israelis (ie: Jews). This allows for the preaching of both Gospels to be preached at the same time, over a period of (overlapping) time. The Gospel of the Kingdom now remains unpreached... for now.
PreachTony
Active Member
For those of us claiming ignorance...can we define the difference between the "Gospel of the Circumcision" and the "Gospel of the Kingdom?" Because it's beginning to sound like the gospel that was good enough to save one group wasn't good enough to save the other, which ostensibly points to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus being sufficient for one group but not another. I'm a bit confused...
beameup
Member
A good example would be what Peter preached in Acts 3:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing [restoration/healing of the earth] shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he [God] shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things [Millennial Reign of Messiah, healing of the earth], which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
*Judaism is earth-centered (ie: Gospel of the Circumcision). The OT promises refer to an earthly reign of Messiah, and a renewal/healing of the earth (Edenic restoration).
*The Gospel of Grace [ie: Paul's Gospel] promises a heavenly destiny - it is heaven-centered.
Eventually, God will fulfill his promises to Israel and Messiah will rule from Jerusalem as promised.
In this present time, one can be saved from their sins without knowing anything about "the fathers", the Old Testament, prophecies, or anything about Judaism whatsoever. "By Grace through Faith" without the "works" of the Law.
Where is that exactly?
You can settle that by simply stating that the Rest in Christ in Hebrews 4 is not referring to eternal redemption in Christ.
I'll be waiting.
That I do not is evident in the post you ignored.
That you do is evident in your own posts:
What is it you say requires labor here, KR?
Would you like me to pull up more quotes which pointed out the works-based tenor you impose into it?
Just answer the one point: You can settle that by simply stating that the Rest in Christ in Hebrews 4 is not referring to eternal redemption in Christ.
God bless.
You are the one making believers out of those clearly pointed out to you to be unbelievers. You equate redemption in a clearly temporal context with eternal redemption in Christ.
One can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit without being born again.
How do you think the disciples ministered? Was it their own power that healed, cast out demons, or preached the Gospel of the Kingdom?
How do you think the Prophets ministered.
And being sanctified in Hebrews 10 has two being spoken of, that also has been mentioned without response. In vv.10-14 we see that those sanctified by Christ are made perfect forever, then you make them lose their salvation in vv.26-29.
Key word "type."
They are holy brethren because they are Hebrews, not because they are Christians.
The writer would not be telling believers to believe, nor those that have entered into His rest to strive to enter into that Rest.
The only logical conclusion is that in view are those who have not entered into that Rest, therefore their works have not ceased.
And show me in Hebrews where they are called "His redeemed."
The regenerate are not in view...only unbelievers. The point is "Don't be unbelieving as they were."
Great, but let's look at the actual text in view:
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The contrast is between those who rejected the Covenant of Law and those that reject the New Covenant.
Not believers falling into sin...that's going to happen.
Not believers falling into unbelief.
These have despised Christ, trodden HIm underfoot, counted His Blood an unholy thing, and rejected the Ministry of the Comforter.
They are not saved.
And note that the distinction is "Punishment for those rejecting the Law was bad, but it will be more severe for those who reject the New Covenant."
This is relevant only to the Hebrew people, and I can guarantee you that you were not approached with the Gospel and told you need to embrace the New Covenant. It wouldn't have made any sense to you.
But for the Jew, steeped in the religion of Judaism, this is a critical issue.
You need to spend some time in this book, it will bless you, really.
God bless.
The Gospel of the Circumcision is contrasted with the Gospel of the Uncircumcision:
Galatians 2:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
...and is Biblically defined in the following verse:
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
It simply represents the audience these two ministered to and does not suggest two Gospels in conflict with the teachings that make it clear there is only One Gospel.
The Gospel of the Kingdom is in my view the gospel preached to Israel by Christ and the Disciples that were specific to Old Testament teaching and prophecy.
Christ said twice:
Matthew 10:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 15:23-24
King James Version (KJV)
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
While the Gospel of the Kingdom holds within it the cumulative Redemption Plan of God, we understand from the New Testament that the specific Gospel of Christ was not revealed to those under Christ's ministry. Alluded to, as it is here...
Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
...but rejected here...
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Even in the Garden we see Peter's absence of understanding:
John 18:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
The Lord points out Peter's opposition, and it is understandable, seeing he, Peter, was not yet Baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Paul writes in Romans:
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
...which, as a number of passages dealing with mystery in the New Testament do, show that this was previously unrevealed truth.
The Gospel of the Kingdom should not be equated with the Gospel of Christ, though both point toward the same conclusion of the Redemptive Plan of God. What was revealed to men in Christ's Ministry has to be kept in a similar context as the rest of Old Testament Prophecy. While Old Testament Prophecy foretold Messiah and His death, it was not until the coming of the Comforter that this knowledge was made known for it's true intent.
Hope that helps.
God bless.
Is this just any ol' sin? Or is it a specific sin germane to and defined within the text?
No, rather that Paul was trying to show to them that their attempting to mature and grow in the faith by depending on how well they could keep and obey the law after salvation was cutting them off from the means god provided for them to do such, by relying upon the Holy spirit and not their own human efforts!