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Paul and The Philosophers at Athens

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Says the man who claims the commands of God are a “burden” that He puts upon His creation.

Says the man who refuses to acknowledge the obvious...

1. God knows everything
2. God gave the OT Law and punishes those that don’t keep it perfectly.
3. Scripture tells us not one single person was ever justified by keeping the OT Law, and therefore under the wrath of God.

Conclusion:

God gave the OT Law knowing no one could keep it.

peace to you

then you must agree with your fellow "Reformed" guy, Wayne Grudem, who says in his theology book

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

Which makes God to be UNJUST!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
then you must agree with your fellow "Reformed" guy, Wayne Grudem, who says in his theology book

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

Which makes God to be UNJUST!
No, means that we cannot reconcile it as God can and does, being infinite , while we are very limited in understanding!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
then you must agree with your fellow "Reformed" guy, Wayne Grudem, who says in his theology book

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

Which makes God to be UNJUST!
You and others who would even suggest blaming God for mans sin need to repent.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think that you can't read English? I can do Hebrew Greek or Latin if you want
Your Greek has been shown to be defective, no one looks to your greek hints.lol
Your theology is weak and often just flat out error.
You remind me of Kipper and Tiger by the seaside....the tide of correct doctrine comes in, and you and your friends struggle to stay afloat.
Look on youtube....Kipper the dog, the seaside

 
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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Your Greek has been shown to be defective, no one looks to your greek hints.lol
Your theology is weak and often just flat out error.
You remind me of Kipper and Tiger by the seaside....the tide of correct doctrine comes in, and you and your friends struggle to stay afloat.
Look on youtube....Kipper the dog, the seaside

If what I write is faulty then why do you read what I write and bother to comment :rolleyes:
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
This was a city that was full of idol worship, which caused Paul’s spirit to be provoked within him. He immediately began by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection (because he preached to them Jesus and the Resurrection, v.18). In response to the inscription, “To an Unknown god”, Paul used this to tell them about the One True God of the Holy Bible, and the real Hope that there is for all sinners, in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verses 26-27, Paul tells these:

“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us”

Paul tells these that they “should seek the Lord”. That is, ζητέω, to “seek after, desire, investigate, to feel the want of”. Then we have the interesting Greek word, “ψηλαφάω”, used, which means, “feel or grope about to find a thing, like a blind man”. Why all of this, if sinners have been “elected to salvation”, and are meant to DO nothing? This is what the Lord Jesus says in Luke 14:24, “Make every effort (strive) to enter through the narrow door, because I tell you, many will try to enter and won’t be able”. If the Reformed/Calvinistic teaching is Biblical, then these passages in the Bible will not be there!

Paul goes on to tell these,

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, “because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by braising Him from the dead.” (30-31)

Paul addresses these words to all those who were listening to him, not some select few, as some wrongly teach. God, says Paul, now demands that ALL humans EVERYWHERE must repent of their sins, because ALL will face the Lord for Judgement some day.

We are told in verse 32, that “some mocked” at the preaching of Paul, and others told him they would hear him again. And some men and women “joined him and believed”, the Gospel. In chapter 28 we read of the encounter that Paul had with some Jews, where it says, “And some believed by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.” (24). Again, it is clear from what the Bible says, that a sinner who hears the Gospel Message, might “believe” in what is preached, while others are not interested. They have a choice, not as some falsely teach, that God chooses their salvation for them! He also “repents and believes” on their behalf! These are perversions of the Gospel Message.

As with the people of Nineveh, who were very wicked and caused great harm to the Jews at that time, yet God in His Great Mercy and Compassion and Love, sent the Prophet Jonah to tell them the Great News of their salvation! Likewise, here in Acts 17, God saws these wretched, lost people who were “given to idol” worship, and sent the Apostle Paul with the Gospel of Hope, so that these could also “repent and believe”, and have eternal life. However, there are always some moaners, like in the time or Jonah, and now with the so called “Reformed”, who see that Greatness of God’s Salvation for the entire human race, do, like Jonah did, say to the Lord at least in their hearts:

“But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. “Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for bit is better or me to die than to live!” (Jonah 4:1-3)

This so much describes the “Reformed/Calvinist”, who always try to find verses that don’t exist in the Bible, for their favorite flower, the TULIP!
Have you ever taken a cave tour where they turn off all the lights?
Could you get out of the cave without having a light?

While you can grope and seek for a way out, you will never get out on your own. You need someone to come and very specifically choose you as a person to save.

So it is that people grope in hope of finding God, but unless God chooses to save you, you will never get out alive.

Thus people seek yet only those chosen will be saved. These two ideas are not incompatible with each other.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If what I write is faulty then why do you read what I write and bother to comment :rolleyes:

I do not believe in censorship, I think error can freely be expressed as I learn from the error, by seeing where the person departs from the truth.
Sort of like doing a theological autopsy. patterns of error emerge.
You own most of the standard errors yet you think all is well.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
then you must agree with your fellow "Reformed" guy, Wayne Grudem,....
Which makes God to be UNJUST!
Instead of telling me who I “must” agree with, let’s see what you believe.

Just to be clear, which of the following statements do you disagree with?:

1. God knows everything that will happen before it happens. Do you agree or disagree?

2. God gave the Hebrew people the OT Law and demanded they keep it. Do you agree or disagree?

3. If the Hebrew people failed to keep even one aspect of the Law they were under God’s wrath for falling short and subject to God’s punishment. Do you agree or disagree?

4. Scripture tells us that not a single person was able to keep the OT Law perfectly (with the exception of our Lord Jesus Christ). Do you agree or disagree?

5: Since God knows everything before it happens and not one single person was able to keep the OT Law perfectly it is reasonable to conclude God knew no one would keep the OT Law perfectly when He gave the OT Law and demanded they keep it perfectly.

Apparently, you cannot make that final connection.

One reason you cannot understand it is because (according to your own statement) you view the commands of God as a “burden” He has placed on His creation.

I view His commands as a reflection of His perfect nature, which is why we are told to be “perfect” as He is “perfect”. The only way for that to happen is for us to be clothed in the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to you
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You and others who would even suggest blaming God for mans sin need to repent.

I am not blaming God for a thing but I am praising God for being God.

I would like to ask a couple questions.

1 John 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

Are the, works of the devil, because of the sin of Adam and the death brought forth by that sin?

Or

Were sin, and death, brought forth by, sin, necessary, for the manifested Son of God, in the destruction of the devil and his works?

Hebrews 2:14 Seeing, then, the children (Of Adam) have partaken of flesh and blood, (Romans 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,) he (The Son of God) himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:26 KJV And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 KJV and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:17 YLT

Did God know exactly what he was doing? What do you think he was doing? Was he setting up, the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan for destruction?

What was, the serpent, doing in the Garden God planted and then placed the man he had created/made, living soul? That is, soul of all flesh is in the blood Lev 17:11 That is. the life is in the flesh and blood. Flesh and blood that cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Before God said Let there be light, the Son of God was going to be manifested as something of whose blood could be given as atonement. Why? Where was the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan when God said, "Let there be light"?

What is the last enemy?

And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, 'Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious; for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you. Acts 17:22,23 YLT

And the rest of the chapter gets very interesting relative to this post in whole.

"It depends on what the meaning of the word is, is," Bill Clinton.
 
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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Instead of telling me who I “must” agree with, let’s see what you believe.

Just to be clear, which of the following statements do you disagree with?:

1. God knows everything that will happen before it happens. Do you agree or disagree?

2. God gave the Hebrew people the OT Law and demanded they keep it. Do you agree or disagree?

3. If the Hebrew people failed to keep even one aspect of the Law they were under God’s wrath for falling short and subject to God’s punishment. Do you agree or disagree?

4. Scripture tells us that not a single person was able to keep the OT Law perfectly (with the exception of our Lord Jesus Christ). Do you agree or disagree?

5: Since God knows everything before it happens and not one single person was able to keep the OT Law perfectly it is reasonable to conclude God knew no one would keep the OT Law perfectly when He gave the OT Law and demanded they keep it perfectly.

Apparently, you cannot make that final connection.

One reason you cannot understand it is because (according to your own statement) you view the commands of God as a “burden” He has placed on His creation.

I view His commands as a reflection of His perfect nature, which is why we are told to be “perfect” as He is “perfect”. The only way for that to happen is for us to be clothed in the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to you

I do not agree that God gave the Jews the OT Law knowing that they would not be able to keep them, so that in doing so they pleased Him. Read the Kings of the OT, where we read of those who "pleased" the Lord, by doing what is "Right" in His sight, and others who did not. There are many instances where Israel walked with the Lord, and did what was "right", and the Lord blessed them. The Bible also says that Enoch pleased the Lord, so much so, that the Lord just took him. Noah "pleased" the Lord. You are completely misunderstanding what it means the keep the Law and so as to be "acceptable" with the Lord. Both Abraham and David were "pleasing" to the Lord, yet both committed sins that "displeased" the Lord. God did in the OT, as He has in NT times, give His Holy Spirit to help those who are His People, to do what is "right" before Him. You are saying that God gave Commandments, that were not possible to keep, and then when people broke these Commands of God, He punished them. This is rubbish, and NOT the Just and Faithful God of the Bible. Your reasoning says that not many Christians will be in heaven, because God says in Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord". There were "carnal" Christians in the Church at Corinth, as there are thousands in the Church today. Christians are told to "be perfect", are you? Are you "holy" every day in your life? Yet God Commands this of us? The NIV is right in their translation, "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.". God wants to see Christians "make an effort" to live "godly" lives, and to ask for help in their time of need. This is what He asked of those under the OT Law, as we read of the rich young ruler in the Gospels,
"17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions" (Mark)

God knew before He created the universe, that Adam and Eve would sin against Him, and ruin His perfect creation. God also knew that after humans sinned and He had to destroy them with the Great Flood, and after this time, they would again sin greatly against Him. Yet, He nonetheless created human beings, knowing that they would not walk with Him, and mainly no please Him, and that the greater majority would sadly end up in hell. By your reasoning, God failed!

Your reasoning that though God "Commands" that every human being were to "repent" for their salvation, that He did not really mean this, as He already knows that they cannot. This is making God into someone Who is not sincere in what He says, by making demands that we cannot keep. You are so far away from the Bible in your understanding on this, as you are on other things that we have discussed here.

My last comment, as you simply cannot grasp what the Bible actually teaches, and not your "reformed" theology.
 
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canadyjd

Well-Known Member
I do not agree that God gave the Jews the OT Law knowing that they would not be able to keep them, so that in doing so they pleased Him. Read the Kings of the OT, where we read of those who "pleased" the Lord, by doing what is "Right" in His sight, and others who did not. There are many instances where Israel walked with the Lord, and did what was "right", and the Lord blessed them. The Bible also says that Enoch pleased the Lord, so much so, that the Lord just took him. Noah "pleased" the Lord. You are completely misunderstanding what it means the keep the Law and so as to be "acceptable" with the Lord. Both Abraham and David were "pleasing" to the Lord, yet both committed sins that "displeased" the Lord. God did in the OT, as He has in NT times, give His Holy Spirit to help those who are His People, to do what is "right" before Him. You are saying that God gave Commandments, that were not possible to keep, and then when people broke these Commands of God, He punished them. This is rubbish, and NOT the Just and Faithful God of the Bible. Your reasoning says that not many Christians will be in heaven, because God says in Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord". There were "carnal" Christians in the Church at Corinth, as there are thousands in the Church today. Christians are told to "be perfect", are you? Are you "holy" every day in your life? Yet God Commands this of us? The NIV is right in their translation, "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.". God wants to see Christians "make an effort" to live "godly" lives, and to ask for help in their time of need. This is what He asked of those under the OT Law, as we read of the rich young ruler in the Gospels,
"17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions" (Mark)

God knew before He created the universe, that Adam and Eve would sin against Him, and ruin His perfect creation. God also knew that after humans sinned and He had to destroy them with the Great Flood, and after this time, they would again sin greatly against Him. Yet, He nonetheless created human beings, knowing that they would not walk with Him, and mainly no please Him, and that the greater majority would sadly end up in hell. By your reasoning, God failed!

Your reasoning that though God "Commands" that every human being were to "repent" for their salvation, that He did not really mean this, as He already knows that they cannot. This is making God into someone Who is not sincere in what He says, by making demands that we cannot keep. You are so far away from the Bible in your understanding on this, as you are on other things that we have discussed here.

My last comment, as you simply cannot grasp what the Bible actually teaches, and not your "reformed" theology.
By your reasoning, you believe Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. You believe people are able to keep the OT Law, and by doing so they achieve salvation.

You believe the commandments of God are a “burden” He has placed upon us to prove ourselves worthy of the salvation we earn by those works.

You believe the Apostle Paul lied to us when he said by the works of the law no flesh is justified in the sight of God, and salvation is by God’s grace.

You believe at least some people were justified in God’s sight by their works and were given salvation because of their works.

You believe the death of Jesus was unnecessary and that Jesus lied to us when He stated no one comes to the Father but through Him because some earned their salvation by keeping the OT Law.

By your reasoning, God the Father sent Jesus to die unnecessarily because there is another way to salvation.

By your reasoning, God is a fool that killed His own son when it wasn’t necessary.

You truly have unbiblical beliefs concerning salvation by grace.

You should change your user name to:

SavedByWorks

peace to you
 
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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
By your reasoning, you believe Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. You believe people are able to keep the OT Law, and by doing so they achieve salvation.

You believe the commandments of God are a “burden” He has placed upon us to prove ourselves worthy of the salvation we earn by those works.

You believe the Apostle Paul lied to us when he said by the works of the law no flesh is justified in the sight of God, and salvation is by God’s grace.

You believe at least some people were justified in God’s sight by their works and were given salvation because of their works.

You believe the death of Jesus was unnecessary and that Jesus lied to us when He stated no one comes to the Father but through Him because some earned their salvation by keeping the OT Law.

By your reasoning, God the Father sent Jesus to die unnecessarily because there is another way to salvation.

By your reasoning, God is a fool that killed His own son when it wasn’t necessary.

You truly have unbiblical beliefs concerning salvation by grace.

You should change your user name to:

SavedByWorks

peace to you

what you have posted here shows your deep ignorance of what the Bible teaches, and my own theology!
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
By your reasoning, you believe Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. You believe people are able to keep the OT Law, and by doing so they achieve salvation.

You believe the commandments of God are a “burden” He has placed upon us to prove ourselves worthy of the salvation we earn by those works.

You believe the Apostle Paul lied to us when he said by the works of the law no flesh is justified in the sight of God, and salvation is by God’s grace.

You believe at least some people were justified in God’s sight by their works and were given salvation because of their works.

You believe the death of Jesus was unnecessary and that Jesus lied to us when He stated no one comes to the Father but through Him because some earned their salvation by keeping the OT Law.

By your reasoning, God the Father sent Jesus to die unnecessarily because there is another way to salvation.

By your reasoning, God is a fool that killed His own son when it wasn’t necessary.

You truly have unbiblical beliefs concerning salvation by grace.

You should change your user name to:

SavedByWorks

peace to you
I cannot like this enough. You have nailed it on the head. This is precisely why I address him as "sbw."

No doubt this is also the reason he has me on ignore.
 
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