PB View of Romans 3:21-26

[pinoybaptist]

ALL of us are born sinners inneed of salvation though, and when one receives thru faith the person of Christ, God justifies us in Him!

God has ordained that its thru faith we receive the grace of the cross!

what shall you do then with those who HAVE NOT HEARD of Christ or the gospel, and therefore had had no opportunity to faith and grace because of chronology, geography, and even just the INABILITY of preachers to be everywhere present such as during the birth or death of babies, in abortion rooms, or in the far reaches of the jungles all over the world ?
Let us begin with:

chronology you are saying then that God has ordained to hell ALL who were born before the time of the Apostles Paul, Peter, John and the New Testament churches, is that right ? since NONE of those "all" have heard the gospel and therefore have no opportunity to faith.

I wonder what exceptions you will come up with, and what Scriptures you will cite to justify those exceptions in order to keep God sovereignly merciful and gracious yet balance your requirement for faith for eternal salvation ? Let us now go to

geography, and let me ask, what will you do with those myriads of souls who through no fault of their own were born prior to the gospel and the opportunity for faith, were born outside of the reaches of what we like to call Biblical lands, in what might be today's North American continent, for example, or the remaining six continents and the far flung islands ?
Let us be a little more contemporary. One member of this board is in Japan and I salute him for his beliefs and his sticking to his convictions,but would you say it were true that had he not gone there, then those souls who now profess faith in Christ through this member's faithfulness in his work, would surely have been condemned to hell because they failed to have the faith which you say was ordained by God as their means to heaven ?
And I guess I could ask the same about those whom others call the "giants of our faith" such as William Carey, Adoniram Judson and a host of others.
Is it right, scriptural, and God-honoring to say that had they not gone to those lands they went to, then those who had become members of their churches, would surely have been condemned by God to hell because there was no preacher, no preaching, no gospel being preached through which they might then find faith ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Perhaps logically, but not temporally. I would say a regenerate person is made alive with Christ (Eph. 2) and at that moment believes... Belief is an evidence of spiritual life.

I beg to differ.
A regenerate person believes BECAUSE he has always had life and immortality brought to light by the gospel (2 Timothy 1:9-10) WHEN and IF he hears the gospel.
If he doesn't hear of Christ and what Christ did for him what is there to believe, as Paul asked in Romans 10:14 ?
what is there to convert to ?
so again, is the power, grace and mercy of God for those whom He foreknew and whose names He wrote in His mind (the book of life) thwarted by the barriers of this timely world ?
do we condemn them to hell because of the lack of opportunity for faith ?
you see how when we look at God's work in the light of His attributes and character things take on a different perspective ?
You ask about Romans 3:25 and I can tell you that the justification it speaks of is both before God because of the shed blood of Christ, and before man, when the sinner turns to Christ and away from his idols and wrong beliefs and ideas about God.
try to think of what you read in the context of Paul's time, and also do not forget that BEFORE verse 25 Paul spoke of those who were under the law (Jews) and those who were not (Gentiles).
I was born and raised strictly Roman Catholic, and now am justified before man in turning away from its false doctrines and its rituals and ceremonies and putting faith in Christ and His shed blood.
How is that different to a Jew in Paul's time turning away from Jewish rituals to the living God ?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

what shall you do then with those who HAVE NOT HEARD of Christ or the gospel, and therefore had had no opportunity to faith and grace because of chronology, geography, and even just the INABILITY of preachers to be everywhere present such as during the birth or death of babies, in abortion rooms, or in the far reaches of the jungles all over the world ?
Let us begin with:

chronology you are saying then that God has ordained to hell ALL who were born before the time of the Apostles Paul, Peter, John and the New Testament churches, is that right ? since NONE of those "all" have heard the gospel and therefore have no opportunity to faith.

I wonder what exceptions you will come up with, and what Scriptures you will cite to justify those exceptions in order to keep God sovereignly merciful and gracious yet balance your requirement for faith for eternal salvation ? Let us now go to

geography, and let me ask, what will you do with those myriads of souls who through no fault of their own were born prior to the gospel and the opportunity for faith, were born outside of the reaches of what we like to call Biblical lands, in what might be today's North American continent, for example, or the remaining six continents and the far flung islands ?
Let us be a little more contemporary. One member of this board is in Japan and I salute him for his beliefs and his sticking to his convictions,but would you say it were true that had he not gone there, then those souls who now profess faith in Christ through this member's faithfulness in his work, would surely have been condemned to hell because they failed to have the faith which you say was ordained by God as their means to heaven ?
And I guess I could ask the same about those whom others call the "giants of our faith" such as William Carey, Adoniram Judson and a host of others.
Is it right, scriptural, and God-honoring to say that had they not gone to those lands they went to, then those who had become members of their churches, would surely have been condemned by God to hell because there was no preacher, no preaching, no gospel being preached through which they might then find faith ?

I agree with your thinking.

I see in your profile that you're a PB. That's quite a long way from your former RC faith.

I am always amazed that I have something in common with a group (PB) whose theology is diametrically opposed to mine in most everything.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Being PB is as far renoved from being Catholic as you can imagine

 

[Yeshua1]

what shall you do then with those who HAVE NOT HEARD of Christ or the gospel, and therefore had had no opportunity to faith and grace because of chronology, geography, and even just the INABILITY of preachers to be everywhere present such as during the birth or death of babies, in abortion rooms, or in the far reaches of the jungles all over the world ?
Let us begin with:

chronology you are saying then that God has ordained to hell ALL who were born before the time of the Apostles Paul, Peter, John and the New Testament churches, is that right ? since NONE of those "all" have heard the gospel and therefore have no opportunity to faith.

I wonder what exceptions you will come up with, and what Scriptures you will cite to justify those exceptions in order to keep God sovereignly merciful and gracious yet balance your requirement for faith for eternal salvation ? Let us now go to

geography, and let me ask, what will you do with those myriads of souls who through no fault of their own were born prior to the gospel and the opportunity for faith, were born outside of the reaches of what we like to call Biblical lands, in what might be today's North American continent, for example, or the remaining six continents and the far flung islands ?
Let us be a little more contemporary. One member of this board is in Japan and I salute him for his beliefs and his sticking to his convictions,but would you say it were true that had he not gone there, then those souls who now profess faith in Christ through this member's faithfulness in his work, would surely have been condemned to hell because they failed to have the faith which you say was ordained by God as their means to heaven ?
And I guess I could ask the same about those whom others call the "giants of our faith" such as William Carey, Adoniram Judson and a host of others.
Is it right, scriptural, and God-honoring to say that had they not gone to those lands they went to, then those who had become members of their churches, would surely have been condemned by God to hell because there was no preacher, no preaching, no gospel being preached through which they might then find faith ?

well...

God ALWAYS saved sinners the same way, by his grace received thru faith, and unde the old covenant, they placed trust and faith in to the messiah to come, those whom God enabled to see the sacrifices as referring pointing to messiah were the redeemed!

God saved either Covenants based upon the Cross of Chrsit, OT looked forward to him, we look back to him!

And God had a faithful saved out remant in Israel, remember Elijah and baal worship?

and God WILL make sure all those intended to hear the message will get the message! radio/satellite/tracts/missionary etc!

And i also maintain that God has made a provosion for those such as infants unable to receive jesus thru faith, by election unto eternal life by the Cross for them!

 

[Van]

Understanding Romans 3:25

1) God publicly displayed Him. Or God presented Him. Or God set Him forth. The action is by God and the action is to put Christ on view so the lost can respond or not.

2) As a propitiation. Or as a sacrifice of reconciliation. Or as the mercy seat. Christ is displayed as the means of salvation.

3) In His blood through faith. The means of salvation is through faith that His blood washes away or removes the consequences of our sins.

4) This was to demonstrate His (God’s) righteousness. God could set aside the consequences of our sins because of the sacrifice of Christ.

5) Because of God’s forbearance, He passed over the sins previously committed. God’s righteousness is also demonstrated by His passing over the sins previously committed because of His forbearance.

The earlier verse, Romans 3:22 is indeed best translated through Jesus Christ's faithfulness. But the means of salvation provided by Christ's faithfulness, even unto death on the cross, remains through our faith in the blood of Christ. Our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

 

[convicted1]

Being PB is as far renoved from being Catholic as you can imagine

I dunno 'bout that Brother....some have very vivid imaginations....:laugh:

 

[pinoybaptist]

well...

God ALWAYS saved sinners the same way, by his grace received thru faith, and unde the old covenant, they placed trust and faith in to the messiah to come, those whom God enabled to see the sacrifices as referring pointing to messiah were the redeemed!

God saved either Covenants based upon the Cross of Chrsit, OT looked forward to him, we look back to him!

with all due respects but we are not in the same frequency here. as a matter of fact this is true not only of you and I but of many on this board and myself as well.
you see, you insist that salvation is received by grace through faith, and I suppose by salvation you mean the salvation that Christ wrought at the cross for sinners. if so, then the salvation you speak of is participatory and requires something of the sinner, his faith, and whether or not God grants him faith is beside the point. the point is that you are saying that the salvation purposed in eternity past and finalized at the cross it time, is NOT passive, while I am saying it is passive, which is to say, God GIVES it to the sinner with NO DEMANDS at all from the sinner WHOEVER he/she is, WHEREVER on earth he/she is, and WHENEVER on time he/she lived.
if what you say, that eternal salvation is to be received by grace through faith is correct, then the redemption and salvation of sinners only began AFTER the cross, and AFTER the gospel began to be preached because then and only then could Romans 10:15 and 17 be true.
but then your reference to an old and new covenant, a looking forward to and a looking back at, creates a problem, and that problem is one of geography, which is to say, based on your statement, that only sinners who are Bible land based, or more specifically, who were Jews in the Old Testament, are part of the redemption of Christ, because the oracles of God were delivered only to the Jews, not the Chinese, not the Japanese, not the Filipinos, the English, not anybody else, therefore the only ones who can have a looking forward to are the Jews whom as you say God enlightened.

And God had a faithful saved out remant in Israel, remember Elijah and baal worship?

well, remember Naaman ? was he a Jew who was looking forward to the cross? and what about Cornelius the centurion ? was he a natural born Jew looking forward to the cross ?

and God WILL make sure all those intended to hear the message will get the message! radio/satellite/tracts/missionary etc!

but you see, that's what I am saying. what about those who lived before the telegraph and the telephone, in far away lands in hollywood-esque times, you know, the time of the "caveman". are we saying God has abandoned them, and set His sights to reveal His greatness and mercy to more technologically advanced times ?

And i also maintain that God has made a provosion for those such as infants unable to receive jesus thru faith, by election unto eternal life by the Cross for them!

well, there is a song I like to sing, part of which goes, "some through the waters, some through the flood, some through the fire, but all through the blood...."

the blood of the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world, which is the blood shed in time at the cross by the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. there is no separate provision for infants, and another one for adults.
it is the same blood that allowed God to take Enoch and Elijah to heaven.