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Featured Pelagianism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jul 24, 2022.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, you are wrong. No apologies needed to you. Both you and Van have thoughts on the Bible that are not in line with any Reformed thinking and to my knowledge not in line with any Baptist thinking. You are at odds. No apologies needed in stating this.

    Just because you disagree, Martin has no need to apologize because your feelings are hurt.
     
    #121 AustinC, Aug 3, 2022
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, so many words when you are wrong is your m.o. Realize no one agrees with you and move on.
     
    #122 AustinC, Aug 3, 2022
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Are you thinking of Matthew 11:25, John 3:19, John 6:44, Romans 3:11 or 1 Corinthians 2:14?
    I would like to hear from @Van how he reconciles his two statements.
    In doing this I am simply following your instructions in post #107.
    Perhaps you would like to show me where I have accused @Van of heresy. I have done no such thing. You started a thread on Semi-Pelagianism on a discussion forum, and you have given a definition of it. As part of that discussion, I have asked how @Van's theology does not fall into your definition. You owe me an apology, but keep it. It's your character at stake, and I forgive you.
    You do not know what I assume.
    If I have wronged @Van, I will gladly apologize to him. I am not clear how I have wronged him since I have only asked him, on a discussion forum, to clarify his views.
     
    #123 Martin Marprelate, Aug 3, 2022
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I do not say that you are not my brother in Christ due to that, but at times van seems to be on his personal vendetta to blast away at we Calvinists, and others here seem to see us as holding to another gospel and God even!
     
    #124 JesusFan, Aug 3, 2022
  5. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Did not van state that even the unsaved and natural men can receive the milk of the word, and that they van seek God by themselves though?
     
    #125 JesusFan, Aug 3, 2022
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  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    No, rather many times the critics of Calvinism will be attacking straw men of own creation, not even what we really do hold with!
     
    #126 JesusFan, Aug 3, 2022
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I just have issues with any, and nor saying any here hold to them, that would see us as not being affected by the fall of Adam, and not having even a sin nature at birth, and to be spiritual dead in our sins to some degree!
     
    #127 JesusFan, Aug 3, 2022
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    If anyone promotes that, its error, the milk of the word is for the newly regenerated. The context of 1 Pet bares that out 1 Pet 1:22-2:2

    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

    2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

    besides, anyone knows a baby must be alive to desire milk ! But before regeneration man is dead to spiritual things.
     
    #128 Brightfame52, Aug 3, 2022
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are correct that my views are not in line with Reformed thinking. I am not Reformed.

    You are wrong in that you think my views are not Bsptist. What you mean is "Reformed Baotist".

    My feelings are not hurt at all.

    @Martin Marprelate misrepresented Van. I actually believe Martin is honest, so I attribute the error to false statements by you and a few others. You repeat misinformation so as to cloud the truth.

    But the fact is @Van never said that men come to Christ apart from the work of the Spirit. He said that the lost, in their natural state, seek God (the normal Christian belief). Not that the Spirit is not working in those lost.

    The only person who said that @Van believes men come to Christ apart from the work of Hod in their lives is you and @Martin Marprelate (@Van flat our denied that view several times).

    That is a problem. You and @Martin Marprelate have posted that another member believes something he does not believe, something that he has clearly rejected.

    It is dishonest and anti-Christian to post on a public form that a brother holds views that he has outright denied. As you two have defended your accusations even after Van has clarified, it has to be an intentional sin, not just a mistake.
     
    #129 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It does not matter if anyone agrees with me. I am not here to seek the approval of men.

    The point that you ate trying once again to obscure is that you are wrong to attribute beliefs to other members when those members have rejected the beliefs.

    Your MO is is obscure. The post I quoted is proof. Rather than act in a Christian manner you just want people to move on and pretend not to see your agenda.
     
    #130 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So... stop being anti-christian, Jon. What you have posted about myself, and I believe Martin, is your interpretation, which is false.
    Honestly, you sound hurt that no one holds your, or Van's, fringe view of Christianity.
     
    #131 AustinC, Aug 3, 2022
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I can answer because I agree with @Van (not answering for him, but addressing the question).

    Saying the lost in their natural state can seek God does not mean that the Spirit is not working in the hearts and minds of these lost.

    If you realize that you have acted wrongfully towards @Van , your nature itself has not changed. You just come to a knowledge of a truth.

    To explain this in a Calvinistic way, Spurgeon gives a great example in a sermon. He presents God as "conquering" the lost. God slowly works in the heart and mind of the lost to "persuade" (Spurgeon's word) the lost. The lost remain lost but start turning to God in degrees.
     
    #132 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it is not interpretation.

    @Van has clarified. He has posted that he rejects the ideas you and @Martin Marprelate ascribe to him.

    Before that it could have been misunderstanding. Afterwards, however, it ventures towards dishonesty.

    And that is the mark of so many Calvinists on this board. They attribute to Christisns who dare disagree with Calvinism views they never held.
     
    #133 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are wrong with your "no". The rest is correct.

    But it is wrong to use the dishonesty of others to justify one's own dishonesty.
     
    #134 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, he didn't. He stated that the list in their natural state can seek God. You assume this to mean without the work of the Spirit. And Van clarified that it doesn't.
     
    #135 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van rejects, then restates a view that is false. When trying to clarify, he calls "falseology" and then restates his false view. The view has been dismantled, yet Van keeps trying to reconstruct it. You do the same thing, but with a different twist. Neither of you actually give clarity and it seems you purposely muddy so as to not have your unorthodox views fully exposed.
     
    #136 AustinC, Aug 3, 2022
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    LOOK....this is a serious problem.

    Often members disagree. This is a purpose of this board. But members need to be honest and stop assigning to members views they do not hold.

    @Martin Marprelate does not understand how the "classic views" of atonement necessitate the Cross. That is fair. But to claim they don't would be dishonesy.

    @AustinC does not understand why @Van rejects Pelagianism. That is fair. But to claim he doesn't would be dishonest.

    Others do not understand how Reformation Arminianism (@Reynolds position) is not man saving himself. That is fair. But to claim it is self-salvation is dishonest.

    Here is how it should go:

    "So you believe this?" "No, I don't." "My bad. I can't reconcile your statements."

    Here is how it goes on this board:

    "You believe this heresy" "No, I strongly reject that heresy" "Well, until I can reconcile your statements or you concede that I am right, you believe thus heresy".

    When a member sounds to you like he is affirming something, just ask for clarification. If he tells you that is NOT what he believes, then that is not what he believes.

    You do not have to understand the guys beliefs, he does not have to reconcile points for you.
     
    #137 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Doesn't matter. @Van never stated that he believed the position you and @Martin Marprelate assigned to him. In fact, he rejected that view.

    But you two keep on assigning to people views they do not hold.


    My view is simple. I will not explain it to you because you do not understand my words. I'll just direct you to look up the "classic view". Perhaps the writings of others can help where I could not.
     
    #138 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This is an example of you not knowing what I assume.
    This is exactly my view and it was the view of many of the Puritans, starting with William Perkins (read his Golden Chaine) and including Thomas Goodwin and John Owen (read his Apostasy from the Gospel). It seems to have been John Murray and his otherwise excellent book Redemption, Accomplished and Applied that has changed people's minds on the subject and persuaded them of 'all-in-one' regeneration. . I doubt you are interested, but I have a blog post on the subject. New Birth (7) The Order of the New Birth

    The thing is that I have posted to @Van that God must 'do a work on the heart of' someone before he can respond to the Gospel, and he has, as is his wont, dismissed it out of hand. Hence my uncertainty that he believes it.
     
    #139 Martin Marprelate, Aug 3, 2022
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that is why I used the example.

    When non-Calvinists post their views Calvinists often want to create more distance in belief than exist.

    Van posted that God draws the lost. That should have been the end of the discussion. You did not accept his answer. I can't blame him for ignoring your constant demands for acquiescence.
     
    #140 JonC, Aug 3, 2022
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