• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Pelagianism

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is this not the theology that says man can choose God without the Holy Spirit? In the past I have preached this lie because I was ignorant of what I was saying, I was influenced by Arminian like Norm Geisler and Mark Cahill, and I was in error. I will admit that I am not perfect and have not arrived. But thee days I clearly see that man it TOTALLY DEPRAVED and cannot choose God without the Holy Spirit. God brings his converts and man cannot by his own will choose the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate it when people show me grace and show me through strong arguments of my error. I do not like it when christian condemn me to the fire for being in error in these kinds of matters. I also do not like it when Christians condemn me because I have books by some Arminian. Some on Facebook have been quick to condemn me and I do not appreciate it. This board seems to have more grace and more argumentation over Facebook where I can get unfriended and quickly condemned.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SolaSaint

Well-Known Member
I pray you do receive grace here, but I will not hold my breath since Calvinism is considered a bad word on this site. God Bless.

oops, let me edit..you didn't say Calvinism, I assumed it. Do you consider yourself a Calvinist?
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I pray you do receive grace here, but I will not hold my breath since Calvinism is considered a bad word on this site. God Bless.

oops, let me edit..you didn't say Calvinism, I assumed it. Do you consider yourself a Calvinist?

I deny Limited Atonement but otherwise I agree with Calvinism, except for Eschatology.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Is this not the theology that says man can choose God without the Holy Spirit? In the past I have preached this lie because I was ignorant of what I was saying, I was influenced by Arminian like Norm Geisler and Mark Cahill, and I was in error. I will admit that I am not perfect and have not arrived. But thee days I clearly see that man it TOTALLY DEPRAVED and cannot choose God without the Holy Spirit. God brings his converts and man cannot by his own will choose the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate it when people show me grace and show me through strong arguments of my error. I do not like it when christian condemn me to the fire for being in error in these kinds of matters. I also do not like it when Christians condemn me because I have books by some Arminian. Some on Facebook have been quick to condemn me and I do not appreciate it. This board seems to have more grace and more argumentation over Facebook where I can get unfriended and quickly condemned.
Do you have even one source showing that Pelagius taught that, or that any Arminian believes that? That charge has been made too many times without anything backing it. I've never heard anyone, ever, state the Holy Spirit is unnecessary in man coming to God.

BTW, many things are attributed to the error of Pelagius' teaching. I was challenged to find any of his work supporting these charges. All I have found were third hand sources saying what he believed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Thomas Helwys

New Member
Do you have even one source showing that Pelagius taught that, at any Armenian reached that? That charge has been made too many times without anything backing it. I've never heard anyone, ever, state the Holy Spirit is unnecessary in man coming to God.

BTW, many things are attributed to the error of Pelagius' teaching. I was challenged to find any of his work supporting these charges. All I have found were third hand sources saying what he believed.

Right. Even Pelagius did not believe what his opponents charge him with. And if I had to choose between him and Augustine, I would choose him because Augustine's pagan-influenced teachings are a blight on Christianity. Fortunately, there are other teachings to choose from.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hey, here is a thought. Study the Bible for yourself, follow after the doctrines of God and quit following after the doctrines of men. That ends all the discussion about who follows who and what kind of influence any of them had.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
But thee days I clearly see that man it TOTALLY DEPRAVED and cannot choose God without the Holy Spirit. God brings his converts and man cannot by his own will choose the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate it when people show me grace and show me through strong arguments of my error.

Allow me to ask you some questions to clarify what I believe to be the REAL issue at hand:

1. Was the Gospel inspired by the Holy Spirit?
2. Has the Gospel been perserved over the years by the Holy Spirit?
3. Is the Gospel today still carried by Holy Spirit indwelled people to the world?

If you answered yes to all these questions, then how can you conclude that someone confronted by this same Gospel is 'acting on his own' or 'without the Holy Spirit?'
 

Winman

Active Member
I believe Pelagius has been, and continues to be completely misrepresented by his opponents, especially Calvinists. I doubt that many Roman Catholics have ever heard of Pelagius, while I do not know of one Calvinist who does NOT KNOW of Pelagius.

For many so-called "evangelicals", primarily of the "Reformed" tradition, throwing around the term Pelagian or Pelagianism is the theological equivalent of the "boogie man" used by some to scare small children. It is, in most Protestant, and certainly Evangelical, circles considered The heresy. A certain website even categorizes other Christian sites as "really bad theology", practically the worst sobriquet being, "pelagianism is alive and well on the Web".

The problem is Pelagius himself did not teach what has come to be called Pelagianism, which was rather outlined by his disciple Coelestius. Furthermore, the subsequent triumph of the Augustinian position over Pelagianism came, not so much through scriptural debate and theological discourse, but (as happened often during the formative period of the Church and, perhaps of more interest to this discussion, later in 16th Century Holland in the dispute between the Remonstrants and Calvinists) by political subterfuge and, at times, outright bribery.

While most intense debates tend to drive the respective opponents to the logical extremes of their positions, Pelagius' initial position may be summed up simply as "what God commands man is able to do". I think most would agree that his basic principle is sound: "God now commands all men everywhere to repent" so all men everywhere have the ability to repent! Pelagius' position was formulated primarily as a response to Augustine, whose doctrine of grace he felt to be a threat to human responsibility as well as freedom. Pelagius was interested in leaving no excuse for those who would impute their sin to a supposed sinful nature. Pelagius asserted that God made man free and that the power not to sin is in the human nature via creation. He held that Adam's sin is not the sin of all humanity and that it would be absurd and unjust to condemn all of mankind for the sin of Adam. While he admitted that the power of Satan and the flesh were intense, his position was that God gives power to overcome them. He also asserted that every man sins for himself out of his own free will and, thus, infants who died before baptism were not lost due to Adam's guilt.

Interestingly enough, his position on grace seems to me to be quite similar to the doctrine of prevenient grace found in Wesley and Arminian theologians. Pelagius held to a concept of original grace or grace of creation which is given to all men (sound familiar?). Admittedly, he did not view it as a special action of God, but rather simply that which is given men as part of their creation. It might be called, though somewhat of an oxymoron, natural grace, but certainly seems similar to Finney's (and others') postulation of natural ability. Pelagius' view on special grace, or what might be termed saving grace, certainly parallels Finney's. This grace consists, not in the granting of the power to do that which one could not do, but in illumination and revelation to woo and encourage men to do that which they will not do.

Finally, Pelagius asserted a grace of pardon or remission of sin which God grants to those who freely repent. Contrary to the charge that Pelagius denied the need for the grace of God, he asserts that without such grace men cannot be forgiven.

Source- http://www.libraryoftheology.com/writings/pelagianism/ThePelagianBoogieMan-JonathanDutweiller.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MB

Well-Known Member
Hey, here is a thought. Study the Bible for yourself, follow after the doctrines of God and quit following after the doctrines of men. That ends all the discussion about who follows who and what kind of influence any of them had.

This would settle a lot of arguments wouldn't it? A men
MB
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you have even one source showing that Pelagius taught that, or that any Arminian believes that? That charge has been made too many times without anything backing it. I've never heard anyone, ever, state the Holy Spirit is unnecessary in man coming to God.

BTW, many things are attributed to the error of Pelagius' teaching. I was challenged to find any of his work supporting these charges. All I have found were third hand sources saying what he believed.

Do you read books? Or are you one of those types that says "I do not read books I only read the Bible?" A author may not directly say that, but by what he writes I know exactly what he believes, even if he does not directly claim something. No one deceived will directly admit it.

Some books

Conversational Evangelism
One heartbeat away

Norm Geisler and Mark Cahill are Arminian and who think that human efforts, methods, evidences, and such are what brings people to salvation. They do not believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you read books? Or are you one of those types that says "I do not read books I only read the Bible?" A author may not directly say that, but by what he writes I know exactly what he believes, even if he does not directly claim something. No one deceived will directly say something.

In your first post, you seem to use arminian and pelagian interchangeably. Do you consider then the same thing?
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Allow me to ask you some questions to clarify what I believe to be the REAL issue at hand:

1. Was the Gospel inspired by the Holy Spirit?
2. Has the Gospel been perserved over the years by the Holy Spirit?
3. Is the Gospel today still carried by Holy Spirit indwelled people to the world?

If you answered yes to all these questions, then how can you conclude that someone confronted by this same Gospel is 'acting on his own' or 'without the Holy Spirit?'

Yes
Yes
Yes

I am not sure I understand your question. All I know is from what the Bible teaches and that is that God brings the converts and man responds. No I do not believe in hmm.... I am running a blank but the doctrine taught by Hyper Calvinists that God forces people to believe in him? Whats the name of that doctrine? I am running a blank. Quite simple man has some free-will but God takes responsibility for bringing people to salvation.
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This would settle a lot of arguments wouldn't it? A men
MB

Yes it would. On another topic of debate I have had with someone offline this would settle it as this person is following traditions and what the pastor says, rather than what the Bible says.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Do you read books? Or are you one of those types that says "I do not read books I only read the Bible?" A author may not directly sany that, but by what he writes I know exactly what he believes, even if he does not directly claim something. No one deceived will directly admit it.
O
Some books

Conversational Evangelism
One heartbeat away

Norm Geisler and Mark Cahill are Arminian and who think that human efforts, methods, evidences, and such are what brings people to salvation. They do not believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation.
No, I am not opposed to books. I do think what you present is a false dichotomy. Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning.
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, I am not opposed to books. I do think what you present is a false dichotomy. Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning.

Eph 2:8-10 says that Grace is not dependent on myself. Do you not believe this? Yes Grace is opposed to those that think they earn Gods favor by their efforts. Like those that dress up to church everyweek to make an impression on God.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Eph 2:8-10 says that Grace is not dependent on myself. Do you not believe this? Yes Grace is opposed to those that think they earn Gods favor by their efforts. Like those that dress up to church everyweek to make an impression on God.
Which begs the question, which system or person teaches dependence on self?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Yes
Yes
Yes

I am not sure I understand your question. All I know is from what the Bible teaches and that is that God brings the converts and man responds. No I do not believe in hmm.... I am running a blank but the doctrine taught by Hyper Calvinists that God forces people to believe in him? Whats the name of that doctrine? I am running a blank. Quite simple man has some free-will but God takes responsibility for bringing people to salvation.

My point is the the GOSPEL is a work of the Holy Spirit, so to suggest there needs to be an additional working of the Holy Spirit for a man to believe the GOSPEL seems redundant at best.
 
Top