Enjoy the time of refreshment and re-creation. God bless.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
- Status
That's the problem with being retired. You never get a day off!But I am going on vacation for just over a week.
I've been trying to talk my wife into letting me just be retired. It isn't working very well.That's the problem with being retired. You never get a day off!
I have reconciled the fact that I'll be working another five years or so with my retirement plans.
Scripture says God is reconciling the world to Himself. It does not say God has reconciled the world to Himself.
Scripture is clear, individuals are reconciled after they have been children of wrath. Thus as each human being is conceived in iniquity, being by nature children of wrath, we know they have not yet been reconciled. All this effort to claim reconciliation occurred when Christ died is without merit.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)
Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice purchased the means of reconciliation through His blood, becoming the propitiation not only for us, but for the whole world.
Scripture is clear, individuals are reconciled after they have been children of wrath. Thus as each human being is conceived in iniquity, being by nature children of wrath, we know they have not yet been reconciled. All this effort to claim reconciliation occurred when Christ died is without merit.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)
Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice purchased the means of reconciliation through His blood, becoming the propitiation not only for us, but for the whole world.
I retired at 63 and have never regretted it for even one second.
Well, my goal was 55, then I changed it to 50. But....that's a couple of years away now and I think it may be too early. I feel on one hand that I'm being greedy (I could retire, but also enjoy the extra $) and on another that I need to work to be better prepared and as an example (and until my son graduates high school....he's 13). I'm playing with the idea of working 3 days a week when I turn 50.I retired at 63 and have never regretted it for even one second.
The problem is that I'm just not sure what I would do if I didn't have to go to work. I guess the BB could fill that void.
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son. (Colossians 1:12-13 NASB) Reconciliation occurs when God transfers us into Christ and not before. On the cross, Christ's sacrifice made Him the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world. We were children of wrath when we were separated from God, in a sinful state, and when we entered Christ the propitiatory shelter, God's wrath and enmity toward us as an individual was propitiated.
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son. (Colossians 1:12-13 NASB) Reconciliation occurs when God transfers us into Christ and not before. On the cross, Christ's sacrifice made Him the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world. We were children of wrath when we were separated from God, in a sinful state, and when we entered Christ the propitiatory shelter, God's wrath and enmity toward us as an individual was propitiated.
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."
Here we see that the intent of the ransom was to make all men reconcilable. The idea that the ransom was sufficient for all mankind but only intended for individuals chosen before creation is unbiblical.
Here we see that the intent of the ransom was to make all men reconcilable. The idea that the ransom was sufficient for all mankind but only intended for individuals chosen before creation is unbiblical.
As I have explained before Ephesians 1:4 refers to God choosing His Redeemer (the Lamb of God) before creation, and therefore choosing corporately as a target group believers for redemption. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. And that is why the verse reads "chosen in Him" rather than chosen (individually.)
OTOH, we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This refers to our individual conditional election for salvation.
So to restate the obvious, Christ died for sinful humanity, becoming the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world.
OTOH, we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This refers to our individual conditional election for salvation.
So to restate the obvious, Christ died for sinful humanity, becoming the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world.
Just read Romans 5:8-11, especially verse 10: 'For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son.........' The Lord Jesus has done everything necessary for guilty sinners to be reconciled to God. That reconciliation, of course, is accessed in time by faith.Thanks Martin for actually citing a verse purported to teach reconciliation occurred when Christ died.
1) When were we enemies of God. Before we were reconciled.
2) When were we reconciled? When God transferred us spiritually into Christ.
3) How were we reconciled? Through the death of Christ, where He become the propitiation for the whole world.
Again this passage clearly teaches we are reconciled subsequent to Christ dying on the cross. Paul goes out of his way to mark the difference, saying Christ died when were were enemies, but now (30 or so years later) we have received reconciliation.
I say again, no verse or passage says or suggests reconciliation occurred when Christ died.
Lets look at one more, Colossians 2:14, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Here the assertion is made "taken it out of the way" refers to our individual reconciliation, but, in the alternate view, the ransom exchange, the just for the unjust, Christ bore (carried away, exchanged) the sins of the whole world for the sinless life of the Lamb. Thus when we are placed in Christ, He can perform the circumcision of Christ and remove our sin burden (whatever God holds and would hold against us.)
Christ died for sinful humanity, becoming the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world.
1) When were we enemies of God. Before we were reconciled.
2) When were we reconciled? When God transferred us spiritually into Christ.
3) How were we reconciled? Through the death of Christ, where He become the propitiation for the whole world.
Again this passage clearly teaches we are reconciled subsequent to Christ dying on the cross. Paul goes out of his way to mark the difference, saying Christ died when were were enemies, but now (30 or so years later) we have received reconciliation.
I say again, no verse or passage says or suggests reconciliation occurred when Christ died.
Lets look at one more, Colossians 2:14, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Here the assertion is made "taken it out of the way" refers to our individual reconciliation, but, in the alternate view, the ransom exchange, the just for the unjust, Christ bore (carried away, exchanged) the sins of the whole world for the sinless life of the Lamb. Thus when we are placed in Christ, He can perform the circumcision of Christ and remove our sin burden (whatever God holds and would hold against us.)
Christ died for sinful humanity, becoming the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world.
Atonement Questions
Is the atonement substitutionary? This question assumes a common understanding of the term “atonement.” In English, the word simply means “a making at one” and theologically refers to the process of bringing someone estranged from God into unity with God. Using this understanding of the term, then Christ’s death on the cross did not bring anyone into unity with God, but instead enabled God to bring those of His choosing into unity with Himself. When God spiritually places someone “in Christ” they are united with Christ, and they are justified, made holy and blameless in Christ. Thus if we use the term correctly, then atonement refers to God placing us spiritually in Christ.
Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live? No, Jesus took away the penalty of sin for anyone spiritually placed “in Him.” We are not made holy or blameless until we are “in Christ.”
If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ? Since Jesus did not take the penalty of sin for every person who ever lived, the question is moot. God’s intention in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation for the whole world was to reconcile mankind to Himself through Jesus Christ. Thus anyone spiritually placed “in Christ” receives the reconciliation provided by the propitiation of Christ’s sacrifice.
Was it His purpose in ransoming sinful humanity to make everyone savable, or to actually remove everyone's sins? God’s purpose was to provide the opportunity for reconciliation to all mankind and to remove the consequences of the sins of those who God places in Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him? Again, the question rests on a false premise, and thus presents a false dichotomy. God accepted Christ’s sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world. One facet of this truth is explained in Hebrews 9:15. Christ’s death was for the redemption of the transgressions committed under the Old Covenant, and therefore those who had gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant may receive the promise of eternal life under the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. Since the New Covenant was inaugurated at the death of Christ on the cross, the Old Testament saints were not made perfect until they were covered by Christ’s propitiation, and therefore only then allowed to enter heaven – see Hebrews 11:39-40.
Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved? Yes, see Hebrews 9:11-12. Christ entered the spiritual tabernacle, the kingdom of God, after He died, arose and ascended, where He intercedes on behalf of those who have been spiritually placed “in Him.” But He entered the tabernacle as High Priest “once for all” such that anyone placed in Christ has Christ as his or her High Priest, because His sacrifice of Himself obtained eternal redemption for anyone who is spiritually placed in Christ. So in the sense of sacrificing, He acted as High Priest for everyone, but in the sense of interceding, He acts for those who are “in Christ,” for those who have received the reconciliation provided by His sacrifice.
And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession? Christ’s sacrifice on behalf of all mankind did not fail, and His intercession on behalf of those placed in Him does not fail, He is God Almighty.
And is it true that Reformed theologians misconstrue the scope and intention of Christ’s atonement? Yes, they combine Christ’s obtainment of “eternal redemption” once for all on the cross, with receiving that reconciliation, putting the cart before the horse and denying that Christ died as a ransom for all mankind.
Is the atonement substitutionary? This question assumes a common understanding of the term “atonement.” In English, the word simply means “a making at one” and theologically refers to the process of bringing someone estranged from God into unity with God. Using this understanding of the term, then Christ’s death on the cross did not bring anyone into unity with God, but instead enabled God to bring those of His choosing into unity with Himself. When God spiritually places someone “in Christ” they are united with Christ, and they are justified, made holy and blameless in Christ. Thus if we use the term correctly, then atonement refers to God placing us spiritually in Christ.
Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live? No, Jesus took away the penalty of sin for anyone spiritually placed “in Him.” We are not made holy or blameless until we are “in Christ.”
If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ? Since Jesus did not take the penalty of sin for every person who ever lived, the question is moot. God’s intention in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation for the whole world was to reconcile mankind to Himself through Jesus Christ. Thus anyone spiritually placed “in Christ” receives the reconciliation provided by the propitiation of Christ’s sacrifice.
Was it His purpose in ransoming sinful humanity to make everyone savable, or to actually remove everyone's sins? God’s purpose was to provide the opportunity for reconciliation to all mankind and to remove the consequences of the sins of those who God places in Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him? Again, the question rests on a false premise, and thus presents a false dichotomy. God accepted Christ’s sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world. One facet of this truth is explained in Hebrews 9:15. Christ’s death was for the redemption of the transgressions committed under the Old Covenant, and therefore those who had gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant may receive the promise of eternal life under the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. Since the New Covenant was inaugurated at the death of Christ on the cross, the Old Testament saints were not made perfect until they were covered by Christ’s propitiation, and therefore only then allowed to enter heaven – see Hebrews 11:39-40.
Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved? Yes, see Hebrews 9:11-12. Christ entered the spiritual tabernacle, the kingdom of God, after He died, arose and ascended, where He intercedes on behalf of those who have been spiritually placed “in Him.” But He entered the tabernacle as High Priest “once for all” such that anyone placed in Christ has Christ as his or her High Priest, because His sacrifice of Himself obtained eternal redemption for anyone who is spiritually placed in Christ. So in the sense of sacrificing, He acted as High Priest for everyone, but in the sense of interceding, He acts for those who are “in Christ,” for those who have received the reconciliation provided by His sacrifice.
And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession? Christ’s sacrifice on behalf of all mankind did not fail, and His intercession on behalf of those placed in Him does not fail, He is God Almighty.
And is it true that Reformed theologians misconstrue the scope and intention of Christ’s atonement? Yes, they combine Christ’s obtainment of “eternal redemption” once for all on the cross, with receiving that reconciliation, putting the cart before the horse and denying that Christ died as a ransom for all mankind.
Just a few questions as I sit in the sun supping my Pina Colada:
You believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for every person that has ever lived, right? So whom has He propitiated in respect of these people? And if the answer is God the Father, then what does He (the Father) still have against folk that He does not 'place in Christ' if He is propitiated in respect of the sins? To whom has He been reconciled and why will many of them still be going to hell?
I'm still trying to get my head around what it is that you believe.
In your understanding, God places people 'in Christ' at some point after Christ died for them. Is this when they believe, or if not, when is it? On what criteria are these people so placed?
You believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for every person that has ever lived, right? So whom has He propitiated in respect of these people? And if the answer is God the Father, then what does He (the Father) still have against folk that He does not 'place in Christ' if He is propitiated in respect of the sins? To whom has He been reconciled and why will many of them still be going to hell?
I'm still trying to get my head around what it is that you believe.
God places individuals in Christ when (and if) He credits their faith in Christ as righteousness. Thus we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.
Christ's substitutionary sacrifice ransomed humanity, with Christ becoming the means of reconciliation for all mankind. Thus anyone sprinkled with His blood (when they are transferred into Christ) has God's wrath and enmity propitiated toward that individual. Christ become the propitiation for the whole world, not Christ propitiated the whole world.
God is propitiated toward an individual when that individual is placed in Christ.
In summary, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice resulted in Christ becoming the means of propitiation. Everyone placed in Christ is sprinkled with Christ's blood and the result is God is propitiated toward that individual forever.
So God has not been propitiated toward those not in Christ and has been propitiated toward those placed in Christ.
Christ's substitutionary sacrifice ransomed humanity, with Christ becoming the means of reconciliation for all mankind. Thus anyone sprinkled with His blood (when they are transferred into Christ) has God's wrath and enmity propitiated toward that individual. Christ become the propitiation for the whole world, not Christ propitiated the whole world.
God is propitiated toward an individual when that individual is placed in Christ.
In summary, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice resulted in Christ becoming the means of propitiation. Everyone placed in Christ is sprinkled with Christ's blood and the result is God is propitiated toward that individual forever.
So God has not been propitiated toward those not in Christ and has been propitiated toward those placed in Christ.
- Status