"Penal Substitution Theory"

[JonC]

We can open a new thread on what Propitiation means if people want. I would like to get back to the O.P.
@JonC wrote:

Do you still hold to this? If so, please note my response to it.

I cannot accept this. There are three places in Scripture where the Lord Jesus is described as a 'propitiation' (NIV 'atoning sacrifice'). These are Romans 3:25-26; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10. I do not see any immediate context to the New Birth in these verses. That is not to decry the vitally important place of the New Birth in our salvation, but it is to say that the teaching does not show up around Propitiation.

What does show up is blood.
In Romans 3:25, we are immediately told that the propitiation was 'by His blood.' In 1 John 1:7, we are told that 'The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all iniquity.' This must surely have reference to 2:2.
This is also in line with the O.T.
Exodus 12:13. 'When I see the blood, I will pass over you.'
Leviticus 17:10. 'For it is the blood that makes atonement for your soul.'
And in other parts of the N.T. eg. Ephesians 1:7; 2:13; Colossians 1:20.

One point I find interesting is that in 1 John 4:10, the sending of Christ as a Propitiation is ascribed to God's love, whilst in Romans 3:25 it is ascribed to His justice.. It puts me in mind of Psalms 85:10.

Yes, I still hold to that.

It is in Christ that we escape the wrath to come. This wrath is the "Second Death" at Judgment. I believe it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment.

I view Christ as the Propitiation for sins along the same lines as Christ presenting Himself as a guilt offering.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, I still hold to that.

It is in Christ that we escape the wrath to come. This wrath is the "Second Death" at Judgment. I believe it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment.

I view Christ as the Propitiation for sins along the same lines as Christ presenting Himself as a guilt offering.

This has nothing to do with what I quoted from you, and is so vague that it doesn't help at all.
You wrote:

The Lord Jesus the Propitiation for the sins of the world because it is in Him that man is reborn (or recreated, born of the Spirit, cleansed) and therefore escape the wrath to come

Where do you see in Scripture 'Propitiation' used in direct connection with the New Birth?

 

[JonC]

This has nothing to do with what I quoted from you, and is so vague that it doesn't help at all.
You wrote:

Where do you see in Scripture 'Propitiation' used in direct connection with the New Birth?

I see this in an overall view (not specifically "propitiation").

The word "propitiation' means "the act of gaining or regaining the favor or goodwill of someone or something".

Christ is this Propitiation. That is what God was doing on the Cross - reconciling man to Himself (regaining favor).

Why do you believe God must punish sins in order to forgive sins?

 

[Revmitchell]

I was not saying it. Webster's dictionary was saying it. Read your link (I cut and pasted from the link you provided.

God gave Christ as a guilt from offering.

I know the Atonement has penal and substitutionary aspects.

But that does not make the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement correct.

You are playing a shell game.

Why do you believe God must punish sins to forgive sinners?

No sir, you are playing a shell game, thats my point.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I see this in an overall view (not specifically "propitiation").

I asked you, In what way is the Lord Jesus the propitiation for the sins of the world? You replied,

The Lord Jesus the Propitiation for the sins of the world because it is in Him that man is reborn (or recreated, born of the Spirit, cleansed) and therefore escape the wrath to come .

Now you say that it'ss somehow 'an overall view and not propitiation! So this is your philosophy, is it? You have no Scripture but you have an 'overall view.' Thank you; that's very revealing.

The word "propitiation' means "the act of gaining or regaining the favor or goodwill of someone or something".

No. That is not the meaning of 'Propitiation' as you know very well. A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath and enables reconciliation. If a man upsets his wife in some way, he may by her a bunch of flowers or a new dress to propitiate her - t o turn away her righteous anger and enable reconciliation. Of course, the wife mat not be propitiated by those things - "Don't think you're going to get around me like that!" But we know that God is propitiated by the suffering and death of Christ because it was God who set Him forth .

Christ is this Propitiation. That is what God was doing on the Cross - reconciling man to Himself (regaining favor).

You nearly have it right here, but the propitiation is in the blood of Christ (Romans 3:25). Christ has satisfied the outraged justice of God by taking upon Himself the puniishment that we deserve (Isaiah 53:5-10; 1 Peter 2:24).

Why do you believe God must punish sins in order to forgive sins?

Well, if He need not, then why did Christ have to die such a terrible death and one that was explicitly cursed by God.?
But in fact it is not for us to pry into God's motives but simply believe the Scriptures. 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.' As I wrote earlier, if you want to seee this is practice, go to Job 42:7-8.. God will not forgive Job's three friends until a sacrifice has been made.

 

[JonC]

I asked you, In what way is the Lord Jesus the propitiation for the sins of the world? You replied,

Now you say that it'ss somehow 'an overall view and not propitiation! So this is your philosophy, is it? You have no Scripture but you have an 'overall view.' Thank you; that's very revealing.

No. That is not the meaning of 'Propitiation' as you know very well. A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath and enables reconciliation. If a man upsets his wife in some way, he may by her a bunch of flowers or a new dress to propitiate her - t o turn away her righteous anger and enable reconciliation. Of course, the wife mat not be propitiated by those things - "Don't think you're going to get around me like that!" But we know that God is propitiated by the suffering and death of Christ because it was God who set Him forth .

You nearly have it right here, but the propitiation is in the blood of Christ (Romans 3:25). Christ has satisfied the outraged justice of God by taking upon Himself the puniishment that we deserve (Isaiah 53:5-10; 1 Peter 2:24).

Well, if He need not, then why did Christ have to die such a terrible death and one that was explicitly cursed by God.?
But in fact it is not for us to pry into God's motives but simply believe the Scriptures. 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.' As I wrote earlier, if you want to seee this is practice, go to Job 42:7-8.. God will not forgive Job's three friends until a sacrifice has been made.

Jesus IS the Propitiation for the sins of the world. It was through His obedience even to death that He propitiated our sin.

God does not desire the blood of sacrifices but He desires obedience. Christ became a curse for us, offered Himself as a guilt sacrifice. This was perfect obedience (what we could not do).

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus IS the Propitiation for the sins of the world. It was through His obedience even to death that He propitiated our sin.

Sins do not require propitiation. It is God who requires propitiation for our sins. God set Christ forth as a propitiation 'through His blood,' not 'through His obedience.' We must read the Scriptures as they are written, not as we wish they were written. It is true that it was necesary for Christ to be 'a Lamb without spot or blemish' or He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice and upheld God's law (Leviticus 1:10 etc. Romans 3:31), However, 'it is the blood that makees atonement for your sins' (Leviticus 17:11).

God does not desire the blood of sacrifices but He desires obedience. Christ became a curse for us, offered Himself as a guilt sacrifice.. This was perfect obedience (what we could not do)..

When you say that Christ became a curse for us, are you thinking of Deuteronomy 27:26 or Deuteronomy 21:23? Either way, who is the Author of the curse?

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

If you believe that, why are you asking me why God must punish sins? Have you considered Job 42:7-8 yet?

 

[JonC]

Sins do not require propitiation. It is God who requires propitiation for our sins. God set Christ forth as a propitiation 'through His blood,' not 'through His obedience.' We must read the Scriptures as they are written, not as we wish they were written. It is true that it was necesary for Christ to be 'a Lamb without spot or blemish' or He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice and upheld God's law (Leviticus 1:10 etc. Romans 3:31), However, 'it is the blood that makees atonement for your sins' (Leviticus 17:11).

When you say that Christ became a curse for us, are you thinking of Deuteronomy 27:26 or Deuteronomy 21:23? Either way, who is the Author of the curse?

If you believe that, why are you asking me why God must punish sins? Have you considered Job 42:7-8 yet?

You seem to be reaching a bit into paganism. Pagan sacrifices were designed to appease gods. But the One True God is not manipulated by man (God is immutable).

I am asking you why God must punish sins to forgive sins because it is at the very heart of your faith and you cannot provide an answer.

You have already said that God's wrath being against sin is a way of saying His wrath is against sinners (against the wicked). That is true. But then you revert back to the idea that sins must be punished in order to be forgiven.

You hold that justice requires sins (or crimes) be punished. To forgive sins God must punish sins. This is a 16th century humanistic philosophy that has been largely abandoned but it lives on in religious dogma, in the theory it spawned.

Why do you believe that divine justice (the highest form of justice) demands that God punish sins in order to forgive those sins?

 

[Aaron]

No. Words have meanings. You change definitions, but Propitiation literally means "to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of".

See my last post above.

 

[Aaron]

Does it mean to appease God, such that His wrath is turned away from the person sheltered by the Propitiation, i.e. Christ?

Yes, He quenched His own just wrath with His own blood.

 

[JonC]

See my last post above.

I did see your post. I'm proud of you for your use of letters in such a manner as to form words.

Now.....go find me a shrubbery.

 

[Van]

Yes, He quenched His own just wrath with His own blood.

Welcome to anti-Calvinism!