Penalsubstitutalism 2

[JonC]

I am going to start with my belief, and perhaps we can see where Penal Substitution theorists depart.

Let's take it step by step.

The Fall of Man

God created Adam from the dust of the ground. God planted a garden in Eden, and He put Adam in this garden. God made all types of trees that produced fruits appealing to the eye and good to eat, but God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, informing him that when he eats of it he will certainly die.

The Serpent deceived Eve, telling her that eating of the fruit would not cause certain death, but that God knows that when she eats from it her eyes will be opened, and she will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Eve saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, it was good for food, and she desired it to give her wisdom. She ate of the fruit and gave some to Adam. Adam ate of the fruit.

Because of this their eyes were opened and they became like God knowing good and evil.
God pronounced a curse on the Serpent, saying He would put enmity between the Serpent and Eve's offspring - the Serpent would strike his heel and he would crush the Serpent's head.

Because of Adam's sin the ground was cursed. Adam would work for food until the day he died - “for dust you are, and to dust you will return”.

As Adam and Eve had become like God knowing good and evil, God excited Adam and Eve from the garden, back to the ground where he was created, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever.

Two Main Problems

The Biblical text provides two main problems for man. One is a product of sin (“sin begats death”). Man is dust and to dust he would return. Through Adam's transgression sin entered the world and through sin death entered the world.

But the other problem is more severe and it was imposed by God. Man was cast out of the Garden, back to the ground where he was formed. God ensured Adam could not return. This is a separation from the presence Adam enjoyed from the time he was taken from where he was formed until he was cast out.

Two issues - death (begat by sin) and God's judgment (casting out). It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

@Martin Marprelate , @DaveXR650 , @Charlie24

Are we at least in agreement so far?

Barring any disagreement with the above, the Atonement must meet two criteria:

1. The wages of sin (death) must be addressed. Sin begats death. Sin and death needs to be overcome. Men will experience the wages of sin as all have sinned and sin begats death.

2. The judgment of God must be addressed. We need a means by which to obtain forgiveness and not be "cast out".

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

We saw this in Jesus. He bore our sins, became a curse for us. He suffered the wages of sin, shared our infirmity, died. And then He was vindicated, sat at the right hand of the Father....not "can't out". He became a life giving Spirit.

 

[Charlie24]

Barring any disagreement with the above, the Atonement must meet two criteria:

1. Jesus is man, the Son of Adam (Son of Man). Jesus must also suffer the wages of sin (death). He must taste death for every man because, although sinless, death entered the world on behalf of man. Jesus must come under this bondage. If not, He is not man. Jesus had to be forsaken to suffer and die under the powers of sin rather than being rescued from this death.

2. Jesus must be judged. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

In Adam's place would Jesus be justified or cast out? The answer is justified. And Jesus became a life giving Spirit.


Are we rescued from the wages of sin? No. But we are rescued from the wrath to come.

Jon, surly you know that Christ rescued us from sin! How could you not see that?

Paul told us in Romans 8 that God sent His Son in the flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us. Rom. 8:3-4.

The curse of the Law was nailed to the Cross, as Paul also said. The Law works against us, it condemns us.

The Moral Law (the 10 commandments) is God's standard of righteousness, but we can't keep those commandments. That is the curse.

We are under the curse of the Law by way of not being able to keep those righteous commandments.

So there's no hope for us, we are bound to the Law of "the wages of sin is death." we are bound for eternal separation from God.

But God provided a substitute to set us free from the Law of "the wages of sin death. Christ rescued us from the power of sin.

When you accept Christ as your Savior you are spiritually baptized into Christ, in the eyes of God you are perfect, sinless, and righteous.

But that is His Grace and Mercy at work, in reality we are sinners worthy of Hell.

 

[JonC]

Jon, surly you know that Christ rescued us from sin! How could you not see that?

Paul told us in Romans 8 that God sent His Son in the flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us. Rom. 8:3-4.

The curse of the Law was nailed to the Cross, as Paul also said. The Law works against us, it condemns us.

The Moral Law (the 10 commandments) is God's standard of righteousness, but we can't keep those commandments. That is the curse.

We are under the curse of the Law by way of not being able to keep those righteous commandments.

So there's no hope for us, we are bound to the Law of "the wages of sin is death." we are bound for eternal separation from God.

But God provided a substitute to set us free from the Law of "the wages of sin death. Christ rescued us from the power of sin.

When you accept Christ as your Savior you are spiritually baptized into Christ, in the eyes of God you are perfect, sinless, and righteous.

But that is His Grace and Mercy at work, in reality we are sinners worthy of Hell.

I am asking if YOU agree with the above.

What I am trying to see is where our beliefs start moving away from one another.

By starting at the end or middle we always talk past one another.

But yes, I know that God delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His Son.


"Let's start from the beginning, a very good place to start" and see where our paths split.

I take it you are fine with my summary?

 

[Charlie24]

I am asking if YOU agree with the above.

What I am trying to see is where our beliefs start moving away from one another.

By starting at the end or middle we always talk past one another.

But yes, I know that God delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His Son.


"Let's start from the beginning, a very good place to start" and see where our paths split.

I take it you are fine with my summary?

I would like to get to the bottom of this, so you just keep going. We will find where we part ways.

Yes, I agree with the summary.

 

[JonC]

I would like to get to the bottom of this, so you just keep going. We will find where we part ways.

Yes, I agree with the summary.

Great. That's all I'm asking.

So the first issue is death, which is produced by sin (sin begats death). Death is the consequence of sin (the wages of sin is death). As stated in Scripture, because of Adam's sin he woukd die ("for dust you are and to dust you will return"). Death entered the world through Adam's sin and spread to all men for all have sinned.

Man cannot escape death (the wages of sin, the product of sin, what sin "begats"). We will die (return to dust) because of sin.

Did Jesus experienced the wages of sin for us? Yes.
Did Jesus die for our sins? Yes.
Did Jesus die for our sins instead of us? No. We will experience the wages of sin (what sin "begats").

But Christ has removed the sting from death. Although we die, yet will we live.


The second issue is this "casting out", or God's judgment. How can we escape the wrath to come, the "day of wrath", Judgment Day, the "Second Death", when Sheol and death are cast into the Lake of Fire?

The wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord .


(@Charlie24 , are we still in agreement?)

 

[JD731]

A response to my last post in thread #1.

If anybody in The History of Spiritual Realities ever HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD,
YOU, MR. JD731 HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!
______________________________________________

If I did it was not because I was arguing for or against Penalsubstitution because the words penal and substitution are not in my Bible and therefore I have no way to cross reference them to find the mind of God to determine what they mean in a context(s) where God shines light on them. Because of my thorough confidence in the words of my Bible I search for understanding in the ways of God from it. I am not impressed by much of this so called scholarship, much of which confuses the doctrines of the Bible by renaming them and opening the door to different ideas about what is meant by the terminology. I responded to how God describes and defines the problem of sin and death in his creation and how he has told us he will fix it in his own words.

I found out that God views the entire human race as "in Adam." That is, "in his family" when he sinned his first sin? Why do I believe that? Because all humanity from Adam to Jesus came from Adam. Death, God said, "passed" upon all men for all (men) have sinned.

The context of this statement covered three different epochs of human history outlined by Paul in these chapters from day 1 until 58 AD when he wrote the epistle, a period of 4 complete millennia. Those periods of time that he covers in the previous chapters of Romans are first, humanity before the law of God was given. Two, humanity, particularly Israel, under the written Law of God. Finally, humanity after the written Law of God as an operative principle of divine dealing.

It is important to understand the information. Paul did not say that "sin" passed upon all men, but "death" passed upon all men. Sons of Adam die without personally sinning (transgressing the law) but they die because of being in Adam. This is a 100% mortality rate so far, including ones who do not know their right hand from their left. David's son by Bathsheba was not a condemned sinner when he died according to the scriptures but he died because he was in the image of Adam and having never done anything, good or bad..

This is not a faulty concept. It has scriptural authority. See here;

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

If one follows the logic of Rom 5 from verse 12 to the end of the chapter he will learn that those in Adam are not counted as transgressors until their is law and they willingly with reason and knowledge. That law that is given first is the law of the conscience when a man knows the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. This is the point in a man's life when sin positions itself as a sovereign in the body.
.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ).

A most important statement. One must change families:

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I will finish this thought later. It is time now for street preaching in KY. I think the understanding of the atonement is on behalf of the oneness of the family of Adam.

 

[Charlie24]

Great. That's all I'm asking.

So the first issue is death, which is produced by sin (sin begats death). Death is the consequence of sin (the wages of sin is death). As stated in Scripture, because of Adam's sin he woukd die ("for dust you are and to dust you will return"). Death entered the world through Adam's sin and spread to all men for all have sinned.

Man cannot escape death (the wages of sin, the product of sin, what sin "begats"). We will die (return to dust) because of sin.

Did Jesus experienced the wages of sin for us? Yes.
Did Jesus die for our sins? Yes.
Did Jesus die for our sins instead of us? No. We will experience the wages of sin (what sin "begats").

But Christ has removed the sting from death. Although we die, yet will we live.


The second issue is this "casting out", or God's judgment. How can we escape the wrath to come, the "day of wrath", Judgment Day, the "Second Death", when Sheol and death are cast into the Lake of Fire?

The wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord .


(@Charlie24 , are we still in agreement?)

That didn't take long. I disagree with the bold.

2 Cor. 5:21

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

He was the Sin-offering for us, taking our place, "the just for the unjust"

You have to let go of the Micro-analyzing, Jon. You can't inject your understanding into the Scripture, you must inject Scripture with Scripture and leave Jon out of it.

 

[DaveXR650]

@JonC. I'm only speaking for myself but I agree with everything you said in your opening post. I think you have outlined the cosmic aspects of what happened to all of us as part of the human race, as being "in Adam". I also agree with post 3 and want to make a couple of notes. Notice that (and this is not wrong) you are referring to the problems of "man" as being common to the human race or man under Adam. And once again, this is correct.

I don't think those aspects give a complete picture of men before God unless you add the following: How can I be right with God? Not Adam, not "mankind" in general, but me. What Adam's sin resulted in is true, and your description of the results is true, but what about my sin, and yours, individually. And this is where I think you at least need to rethink your teaching or you risk causing great harm to people.

You say this much yourself:

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

We saw this in Jesus. He bore our sins, became a curse for us. He suffered the wages of sin, shared our infirmity, died. And then He was vindicated, sat at the right hand of the Father....not "can't out". He became a life giving Spirit.

I believe that what happened to our sins, the personal sins we as individuals have committed, Christ bore, became a curse for us, suffered the wages of those sins too, died; are included in any complete explanation of the atoning work of Christ. What is frustrating to me is this. What you have just described is considered by most to be "penal substitution". For me it is certainly close enough. The only caution I would add to the above is that you I think tend to precede a correct view of the atoning work of Christ with the preceding phrase: "It is appointed man once to die and then the judgement". The thing that raises a huge red flag with me when I see that is are you trying to minimize or deemphasize the fact that a huge part of our problem is our individual and personal offenses we have committed against God. And are you trying to shift this to more of an impersonal, and collective "problem" we have involving our impending death and the curse of our living in this world with sickness, death and problems? This is important to me because most of Christianity has or is moving in such a direction and I believe like the Puritans that it should be mainly personal. There would be the conflict.

 

[JonC]

That didn't take long. I disagree with the bold.

2 Cor. 5:21

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

He was the Sin-offering for us, taking our place, "the just for the unjust"

You have to let go of the Micro-analyzing, Jon. You can't inject your understanding into the Scripture, you must inject Scripture with Scripture and leave Jon out of it.

Great. I was hoping it wouldn't take long.

I am not sure about your disagreement. I was speaking of the "wages of sin", the death sin "begats", man "returning to dust". It seems to me that Jesuc physically died but we did not escape physically dying through that death (I believe that "although we die yet may we live".

I think what may be throwing me off in understanding your disagreement is your use of "righteousness".

I always associated "righteousness" and "unrighteousness" with God's judgment rather than a product of "the powers of darkness" and was checking to make sure we agreed on the physical death part before going on to divine judgment.

Can you help me understand your position a bit more (sorry, I told you guys I was a bit slow on the uptake).

I do not get how being righteous is dependent on the "powers of darkness". It seems to me this would fall under the judgment of God part.

 

[JonC]

@JonC. I'm only speaking for myself but I agree with everything you said in your opening post. I think you have outlined the cosmic aspects of what happened to all of us as part of the human race, as being "in Adam". I also agree with post 3 and want to make a couple of notes. Notice that (and this is not wrong) you are referring to the problems of "man" as being common to the human race or man under Adam. And once again, this is correct.

I don't think those aspects give a complete picture of men before God unless you add the following: How can I be right with God? Not Adam, not "mankind" in general, but me. What Adam's sin resulted in is true, and your description of the results is true, but what about my sin, and yours, individually. And this is where I think you at least need to rethink your teaching or you risk causing great harm to people.

You say this much yourself:

I believe that what happened to our sins, the personal sins we as individuals have committed, Christ bore, became a curse for us, suffered the wages of those sins too, died; are included in any complete explanation of the atoning work of Christ. What is frustrating to me is this. What you have just described is considered by most to be "penal substitution". For me it is certainly close enough. The only caution I would add to the above is that you I think tend to precede a correct view of the atoning work of Christ with the preceding phrase: "It is appointed man once to die and then the judgement". The thing that raises a huge red flag with me when I see that is are you trying to minimize or deemphasize the fact that a huge part of our problem is our individual and personal offenses we have committed against God. And are you trying to shift this to more of an impersonal, and collective "problem" we have involving our impending death and the curse of our living in this world with sickness, death and problems? This is important to me because most of Christianity has or is moving in such a direction and I believe like the Puritans that it should be mainly personal. There would be the conflict.

I don't think those aspects even address being right with God.

I wanted to get the "wages of sin", "sin begats death", suffering under the "powers of darkness" part out of the way first. I assumed the disagreement would be in the second category (divine judgment).

I get this from Scripture stating "the wages of sin are death", "sin begats death", "it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment", sinners are under "the power of darkness", etc. Sin is (my wording) a type of suicide in that sin itself "begats death", "is death".

If we agree there we can mark "it is appointed man once to die" as "agreed upon" and start with "and then the judgment" part.

I kinda want to see if @Charlie24 is tracking (he jumped ahead. But I think we might agree on this oart as any true judgment must....I think....come from God).

 

[Charlie24]

Great. I was hoping it wouldn't take long.

I am not sure about your disagreement. I was speaking of the "wages of sin", the death sin "begats", man "returning to dust". It seems to me that Jesuc physically died but we did not escape physically dying through that death (I believe that "although we die yet may we live".

I think what may be throwing me off in understanding your disagreement is your use of "righteousness".

I always associated "righteousness" and "unrighteousness" with God's judgment rather than a product of "the powers of darkness" and was checking to make sure we agreed on the physical death part before going on to divine judgment.

Can you help me understand your position a bit more (sorry, I told you guys I was a bit slow on the uptake).

I do not get how being righteous is dependent on the "powers of darkness". It seems to me this would fall under the judgment of God part.

Righteousness has nothing to do with the powers of darkness, righteousness is the gift of God, seeing man can't obtain it on his own.

When God made the decree, "the wages of sin is death" it included both physical and spiritual death.

Sin dwells in the body of man, and it must die due to sin, "it is appointed to man once to die."

Through the death of Christ for our sins, condemning sin in the flesh, He rose again with a new body, incorruptible and perfect, making it possible for us rise again from the grave with the same body.

The Law has also condemned us also to spiritual death, eternal separation from God. This is where God gave us a substitute to bear ours sins by way of a ransom to give us a way of escape from, "the wages of sin is death."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Did Jesus die for our sins instead of us? No. We will experience the wages of sin (what sin "begats").

The answer to the question is "yes." 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.'
Christians do not experience the wages of sin. He has 'passed from death to life.' 'And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.' It is true that, unless our Lord returns first, we shall eventually shuffle off this mortal coil, but the essential 'us' will never die. That is why the NT usually describes the passing of Christians as 'falling asleep' (John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 15:51 etc.).

God is satisfied with the propitiation achieved by the Lord Jesus. Of course He is because it is He who set Him forth as a propitiation (Romans 3:25-26). The sinless One, Christ, is made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). What does that mean? In the light of Isaiah 53:6, it must mean that God has laid the sins of all His people upon Jesus. Did He suffer in our place? You bet! 'He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities.' Due to the suffering and death of our Saviour, God can be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.

These verses have been quoted on this board dozens of times. How @JonC can pretend that there are no verses supporting the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is beyond me. But there is a body of Penal Substitution deniers about, and he appears to have been seduced by them. But I would like to know how he can demand a one-verse proof text from us, but never supply one that denies the Doctrine.

 

[Charlie24]

Righteousness has nothing to do with the powers of darkness, righteousness is the gift of God, seeing man can't obtain it on his own.

When God made the decree, "the wages of sin is death" it included both physical and spiritual death.

Sin dwells in the body of man, and it must die due to sin, "it is appointed to man once to die."

Through the death of Christ for our sins, condemning sin in the flesh, He rose again with a new body, incorruptible and perfect, making it possible for us rise again from the grave with the same body.

The Law has also condemned us also to spiritual death, eternal separation from God. This is where God gave us a substitute to bear ours sins by way of a ransom to give us a way of escape from, "the wages of sin is death."

You see, Jon, God demands payment for sin, through His own Law the decree has been made.

He gave us a substitute by way of Christ, as that sin offering payment for us to be set free from "the wages of sin is death."

But there is a condition! Only those who accept Christ through repentance of their sin will benefit from that ransom.

 

[Charlie24]

You see, Jon, God demands payment for sin, through His own Law the decree has been made.

He gave us a substitute by way of Christ, as that sin offering payment for us to be set free from "the wages of sin is death."

But there is a condition! Only those who accept Christ through repentance of their sin will benefit from that ransom.

You can accept Christ today and let Him be the satisfaction for your sins,

or you can wait till tomorrow and pay for your own sins.

 

[JonC]

Righteousness has nothing to do with the powers of darkness, righteousness is the gift of God, seeing man can't obtain it on his own.

When God made the decree, "the wages of sin is death" it included both physical and spiritual death.

Sin dwells in the body of man, and it must die due to sin, "it is appointed to man once to die."

Through the death of Christ for our sins, condemning sin in the flesh, He rose again with a new body, incorruptible and perfect, making it possible for us rise again from the grave with the same body.

The Law has also condemned us also to spiritual death, eternal separation from God. This is where God gave us a substitute to bear ours sins by way of a ransom to give us a way of escape from, "the wages of sin is death."

So why do we die physically if Jesus died physically instead of us.

Where do you get this "third death" (in the Bible there are two - physically death and the Second death).

I do disagree that sin is a biological problem, if that's what you mean.


"Sin begats death", "the wages of sin is death", the powers of sin are "the powers of darkness", and this death is defined as "dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return".


Please provide a passage stating that the wages of sin is "spiritual death".
Please provide a passage stating that one can "spiritually die".
Please provide a passage stating this third type of death.
Please provide a passage that places us under the Law.
Please provide a passage that tells us we escape physicsl death.

That will help me understand where you are coming from. Right now it just seems that you have jumbled up a bunch of passages and ideas that are kept seperate in Scripture. I'm having trouble sifting through your ideas to identify where they are in the Word of God.

Thanks

You see, Jon, God demands payment for sin, through His own Law the decree has been made.

He gave us a substitute by way of Christ, as that sin offering payment for us to be set free from "the wages of sin is death."

But there is a condition! Only those who accept Christ through repentance of their sin will benefit from that ransom.

@Charlie24

I was hoping we could have a discussion where we could examine where our understandings diverge.

You are, once again, simply making statements of what you think without any structure or biblical evidence.

What passage states that God demands payment for sins?
Why would this fall under what sin (what the powers of darkness) begats rather than God's judgment?
What passage states that Jesus made a "sin offering offeting payment"?
What passage states that salvation is through the Law?
What passage states that Jesus only saved those under the Law?

 

[DaveXR650]

I don't think those aspects even address being right with God.

Just to be clear. Are you saying that the individual sins a person commits have nothing to do with being right with God?

 

[JonC]

The answer to the question is "yes." 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.'
Christians do not experience the wages of sin. He has 'passed from death to life.' 'And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.' It is true that, unless our Lord returns first, we shall eventually shuffle off this mortal coil, but the essential 'us' will never die. That is why the NT usually describes the passing of Christians as 'falling asleep' (John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 15:51 etc.).

God is satisfied with the propitiation achieved by the Lord Jesus. Of course He is because it is He who set Him forth as a propitiation (Romans 3:25-26). The sinless One, Christ, is made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). What does that mean? In the light of Isaiah 53:6, it must mean that God has laid the sins of all His people upon Jesus. Did He suffer in our place? You bet! 'He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities.' Due to the suffering and death of our Saviour, God can be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.

These verses have been quoted on this board dozens of times. How @JonC can pretend that there are no verses supporting the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is beyond me. But there is a body of Penal Substitution deniers about, and he appears to have been seduced by them. But I would like to know how he can demand a one-verse proof text from us, but never supply one that denies the Doctrine.

Let's assume you believe "it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment".
Let's assume you believe "the wages of sin is death", "sin begats death", and that death falls under "the powers of darkness: (Let's assume you accept Scripture).

Which is God's judgment against the wicked in the verse that telks us "it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment:?

If this first death is God's judgment and Jesus experienced it instead of us then why do we die?

Where fo you get this thrid type if death?

Do you have any passages actually stating what you believe?

 

[Charlie24]

So why do we die physically if Jesus died physically instead of us.

Where do you get this "third death" (in the Bible there are two - physically death and the Second death).

I do disagree that sin is a biological problem, if that's what you mean.


"Sin begats death", "the wages of sin is death", the powers of sin are "the powers of darkness", and this death is defined as "dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return".


Please provide a passage stating that the wages of sin is "spiritual death".
Please provide a passage stating that one can "spiritually die".
Please provide a passage stating this third type of death.
Please provide a passage that places us under the Law.
Please provide a passage that tells us we escape physicsl death.

That will help me understand where you are coming from. Right now it just seems that you have jumbled up a bunch of passages and ideas that are kept seperate in Scripture. I'm having trouble sifting through your ideas to identify where they are in the Word of God.

Thanks

To answer your first sentence, we must die physically because of the sin dwelling in our bodies.

God doesn't rehabilitate man, He demands that man die for his sins, physically.

Then the one who accepts Christ is born-again in spirit and soul, but the body must die.

That's why I have said many times we are 2/3 saved, the body is not saved until the resurrection.

God demanded a perfect sacrifice for sin, none of us meet that demand.

Christ lived His life perfectly, never sinning in deed or thought, and that is the perfect sin-offering God would accept, the just for the unjust.

@Charlie24

I was hoping we could have a discussion where we could examine where our understandings diverge.

You are, once again, simply making statements of what you think without any structure or biblical evidence.

What passage states that God demands payment for sins?
Why would this fall under what sin (what the powers of darkness) begats rather than God's judgment?
What passage states that Jesus made a "sin offering offeting payment"?
What passage states that salvation is through the Law?
What passage states that Jesus only saved those under the Law?

Ok, Jon, you keep micro-analyzing the Word of God in your understanding and I'll apply Scripture to Scripture for my understanding.

If you can't see it by now, I give up and hand it over th the Lord.

 

[JonC]

Just to be clear. Are you saying that the individual sins a person commits have nothing to do with being right with God?

No.

I am saying that Adam sinned and because of that sin would "return to dust", for the wages of sin is death, sin begats death.

I'm talking about the "die" in "it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment".

That's the part I've been trying to get agreement on before continuing.

God's immediate judgment on Adam was to cast him out. This is a separation. So is the Second Death.

The " wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord".

 

[DaveXR650]

@JonC. I'm only speaking for myself but I agree with everything you said in your opening post. I think you have outlined the cosmic aspects of what happened to all of us as part of the human race, as being "in Adam". I also agree with post 3 and want to make a couple of notes.

That's the part I've been trying to get agreement on before continuing.

Then continue. Do you also have an idea of how or if the atonement relates to the individual sins that we have committed?