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Penalsubstitutalism 2

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JonC

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I appreciate the fact that the thread has miraculously come to life again. Did you get overruled by your fellow mods, @JonC? About time!
I have no idea what you mean by getting overruled. But no. We have not discussed threads lately. Have you been drinking again?

In fact, Luther came before Calvin.
You were the one who kept talking about Luther being introduced to Calvin's philosophy and how he was fine with it. This is one the thread where you were stating your pride in studying Luther and what you wrote on a blog.
As usual, when @JonC runs out of argument, he falls back on snide comments.
This is a very foolish statement.

I am saying that your post about Luther's commentary on that verse being firmly Penal Substitution Theory is perhaps the best in demonstrating our differences.


I believe that my salvation is dependent on the fact that the Son of God, who is God, suffered the cross, reconciling mankind to Himself.

You and @DaveXR650 believe Jesus ceased being God's Son on the Cross.


That is not being snide. That is a real difference.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Wasn't this thread closed?

Jon?
I closed it to consider whether @Martin Marprelate and you went too far in the claim that Jesus ceased being God's Son on the cross.

I opened it while I thought about it.

I still have not decided.

I believe that the doctrine you suggest is demonic and the result of men being carried away by vain philosophy. It denies the standard Doctrine of the Trinity, but I'm not sure if it denies a more general concept.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Sorry JonC, but you did not give a biblical definition of death in your whole rant. So I am going to give my understanding.

Death is separation. Spiritual death is separation of God from the body. Physical death is separation of the soul from the body. So far every man born of Adam has suffered physical death but only two men have experienced spiritual death. Those two men are called Adam, the first and the last. They are called man, the first man and the second man. For the purpose of understanding they are both referred to in their headship over their families as "one" man. I need to quote this one to you.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ).
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The next time any man will ever suffer spiritual death is at the great white throne judgement when the bodies of the unwashed are resurrected and bot body and soul are cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death according to the scriptures. death and hell equates to the body and soul. This is separation from God forever.

Now, we are told in the scriptures that every one in Adams family are dead and walk in trespasses and sins but we are not told it is because they have died. There is a difference between dying and being dead. All who are born of Adam sin because they are natural men. They have been born in the image of Adam after his fall. They are spiritually dead without dying and are dead because they are all born in the image of Adam. All those born in Adam are born innocent, without sin in them, just as Adam was created by God in his image and as innocent, tested by a choice of right and wronf only to fail, and all of his offspring are tested just as he was and so far in human history, every single one of us have sinned, as father Adam did. All of us when faced with the ability and maturity to make a choice have sinned because sin is a sovereign over us (Rom 5) and we have no power in our natural selves to resist him. The wages of sin, the pay off of sin, is death we are told and all have sinned. The mortality rate for the entire family of Adam is 100 percent. This fact proves the scriptural point.

But what is the goal for humanity through Jesus Christ? The purpose of God through Jesus Christ is to forgive us all our sins and to give us eternal life. instead of eternal condemnation and death, which we are under because of sin.

What is life? Can we know? Are we told? The answer is yes we are told and we can know but it will take faith in the word of God. Here is the answer from God himself.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Well, the Spirit when he is in a person is life. He is Spirit and he is life. Since God has promised that he is in a believer through the new birth forever, it means he is spiritual life. I did not say that, I quoted inspired scripture saying it. He has blood through Adam in him also and the blood is also life. Do not believe me, believe the scriptures. Here:

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The eternal life of God is the Spirit. Sons of Adam can live on the earth without the Spirit but they cannot live in the body he receives through Adam without the blood. The soul of man is his real self and the spiritual (unseen by the human eye) part of man and when the body dies of one who has experienced the new birth and is in the family of God, he is said to be "sealed" by the Spirit in the family as he awaits the resurrection and glorification of the new body. When that occurs every aspect of the Adamic nature of man will be erased because the Spirit of Christ will be his life, both physical and Spiritual and no blood will be in his body.

I am hitting high spots only now but there is some interesting things we are told about the renewing of the image and likeness of God in the New Testament. The blood of the cross of Jesus Christ the tested and sinless son of God made atonement for all the sons of Adam after the fall.

Atonement is the means of reconciliation between God and man. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Our Lord Jesus made the atonement and God has received it and each of us must receive it to be reconciled. Sin has been taken out of the way.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

I pray the Lord is pleased with this post and Jesus will be glorified by it. I pray ones here will put their full trust in Jesus Christ.
Back later to show the results of of the new birth.
Sorry....I thought I had.

Scripture defines death as "returning to dust".

Scripture defines the second death as Sheol and death being cast into the Lake of Fire.


My rant was that we had two professing Christians claim that Jesus ceased being the Son of God on the cross. BUT they provided no Biblical support for that heresy.
 
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