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Penalsubstitutionism.

Charlie24

Active Member
Christ was severely beaten before nailed to the Cross, I can't imagine a more agonizing death.

He suffered in man's place for the most vilest of sins, all of it placed on Him and for all time.

He suffered to the maximum degree, for the maximum penalties of the Law.

And He is the satisfaction for our sins for all time and for everyone.

1 John 2:2

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
 

Charlie24

Active Member
He suffered to the maximum degree, for the maximum penalties of the Law.

And He is the satisfaction for our sins for all time and for everyone.

1 John 2:2

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

But there's a condition to be met to reap the benefits of our Lord's death!

Romans 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

This is not a work as the Calvinists suppose. It's a simple acceptance of who you are in the eyes of God, a sinner with no hope. Receiving Grace through faith by saying yes to the Holy Spirit when comes knocking on your door with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Because of our sin.

Men have died in more agonizing ways. Some have been crucified upside down. Some have been skinned alive. Many have been beaten and crucified.

The difference was that we earn death. Jesus is sinless. He suffered and died under the wages that we earn.
Suffered=penal
We earned=substitution
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
I agree with a lot here. I disagree with a few points that are not in God's Word, but I understand why you believe it is taught.

Why do you think that Jesus suffered "spiritual death"?

From what I have read there is physical death and there is the "Second death" (when death and Sheol is cast into the Lake of fire). But this "Second death" seems to be related to Judgment (which was "given to Christ", and the condemnation is that the Light came into the world and men rejected the Light).

I see that men are "flesh" and that the "flesh comes first snd then the spirit". And that men, being flesh, are soiritually dead and in need of being "born of the Spirit". But I cannot find any references to "dying spiritually".

It seems that spiritual life is eternal life (that once one is made alive spiritually they never die spiritually).


Will you provide the passages related to this so that I can see what I'm missing?
I think you have a wrong concept of the nature of man and this is causing you all sorts of bad thinking. So, since this is true I will begin in the beginning when God created man the way he wanted him to be and the way in which he will be in eternity. He is not that way now unless he is "born again" of the Spirit of God. The reason men are not in the image in which God created him is because SIN entered into the world and DEATH by sin and death passed upon all men for ALL have sinned.

I will keep this simple because God is dealing with babes in understanding and he has to give babes building blocks so they can grow with understanding.

So here is the starting place after God had created an environment conducive to man.

Gen 2: 27 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (the Spirit); and man became a living soul (human soul).

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This does not mean that Adam, looking in a mirror saw God. It means that Adam was created a trinitarian entity, a physical body in which both Adam, his soul, the spiritual part of man. the inner man, and the Spirit of Elohim, that person of the trinitarian God, both tabernacled in perfect unity together. When Adam allowed sin in the tabernacle the Spirit cannot co-habit with sin and so departed. This was spiritual death. This happened to Jesus when he became sin for us. The Spirit departed his tabernacle and he suffered, body and

Adam was completely transformed by this deed. He was created in a glorified state. One cannot be in the presence of God unless he is glorified. What other explanation can be given that one who can communicate face to face with God would not know that he was naked. His clothing was righteousness and his body shined as bright as the sun, until he sinned. It was then necessary for a different kind of clothing. The resurrected and glorified bodies of church saints will shine as Jesus body shines. See Lk 3:38 to see that Adam was the "son of God" before the fall. All sons of God, either of the angelic ranks or human who are sons of God are sons because they have indwelling them the Spirit of God. Adam and Jesus are the only two men in the OT times who were "sons of God" although there were other entities who were called sons of God.

What is the one and only hindrance to God, the Spirit, tabernacling with men as a member of their being? It is one thing and one thing only. It is sin. If one can do away with sin then the Spirit can and will indwell the body, giving the man eternal life by his continual presence.

This is as simple as I can make it. I will let you chew on these great truths for a while and then I will show you how the trinitarian image that was lost for all Adams seed was restored by the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

I will leave you with the contrasting types of Adam and Jesus. The word AS points to the type and the word SO to the antitype. This contrast is made at least 5 times in the portion I am quoting and it is very instructive to the spiritual mind.

Rom 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ).

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

See verse 19. Many does not have to be all but more often than not it is, but all is many.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Christ was severely beaten before nailed to the Cross, I can't imagine a more agonizing death.

He suffered in man's place for the most vilest of sins, all of it placed on Him and for all time.
I can.

You have to remember that Jesus' death was not unique in form. He experienced a Roman crucifixion.

Christians would die horribly as well. Some were crucified, some were skinned alive, some crucified and before they died burned alive, some were cooked alive in a vat....

It was not Jesus method of death that was unique but Jesus Himself.

We recieve death as a wage ("sin begats death"), but Jesus died for our sins.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Suffered=penal
We earned=substitution
Penal does not mean suffered.
Substitution does not mean experiencing what another earned.

Penal substitution is a type of substitution (as opposed to representative substitution and satisfactory substitution)
 

Charlie24

Active Member
I can.

You have to remember that Jesus' death was not unique in form. He experienced a Roman crucifixion.

Christians would die horribly as well. Some were crucified, some were skinned alive, some crucified and before they died burned alive, some were cooked alive in a vat....

It was not Jesus method of death that was unique but Jesus Himself.

We recieve death as a wage ("sin begats death"), but Jesus died for our sins.

Yes, I can see you hinting on it, it's because He was God in the flesh that this happened.

Not you or me, that actually deserve it, but God Himself took our sins upon Himself in agony.

We are the greatest of God's creation, but there must be something very special about us for Him show this type of Love.

He wants a people of His own who willingly chose Him to worship and praise Him for what He's done

But I know in my heart it's much deeper than this.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Penal does not mean suffered.
Substitution does not mean experiencing what another earned.

Penal substitution is a type of substitution (as opposed to representative substitution and satisfactory substitution)
Penal means suffering a penalty. Substitution means substituting Christ for us.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Penal means suffering a penalty. Substitution means substituting Christ for us.

And there's no way of getting around that He carried our sins on that Cross, in our place, that by faith in Him we receive His righteousness that we in no way deserve. A free gift from the Father who sacrificed His Son for us, if only we will accept Him.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
And there's no way of getting around that He carried our sins on that Cross, in our place, that by faith in Him we receive His righteousness that we in no way deserve. A free gift from the Father who sacrificed His Son for us, if only we will accept Him.

The most gut wrenching thoughts in trying to understand, that salvation is so very, very simple, and God has sacrificed the very best he has, and freely offered us a way to escape the damnation to come, but yet, Christ has already told us, "few there be that find it."

Man makes salvation almost if not in some cases totally impossible to receive. But yet it's so simple.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Penal means suffering a penalty. Substitution means substituting Christ for us.
Sorry....I thought we were talking about penal substitution (as relating to the Atonement).

Yes, Jesus suffered the wages of sin.
No, the type of substitution was not "penal substitution" (not instead of us)
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
And there's no way of getting around that He carried our sins on that Cross, in our place, that by faith in Him we receive His righteousness that we in no way deserve. A free gift from the Father who sacrificed His Son for us, if only we will accept Him.
On that I agree. I disagreed with the additions penal substitution theorists make (God ounished Jesus, Jedus suffered Gid's wrath, Jesus bore our sins instead of us).

I disagree with the assumption that the type of substitution was penal substitution (Jesus was punished instead of us) instead of representative substitution (Jesus is the Son of Man, the Second Adam). I also disagree with satisfactory substitution.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
On that I agree. I disagreed with the additions penal substitution theorists make (God ounished Jesus, Jedus suffered Gid's wrath, Jesus bore our sins instead of us).

I disagree with the assumption that the type of substitution was penal substitution (Jesus was punished instead of us) instead of representative substitution (Jesus is the Son of Man, the Second Adam). I also disagree with satisfactory substitution.

We know, Jon. But that's ok, don't let anyone throw you for a loop over this, Hold fast that which thou hast (faith), that no man take thy crown.

Everything will be just fine!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We know, Jon. But that's ok, don't let anyone throw you for a loop over this, Hold fast that which thou hast (faith), that no man take thy crown.

Everything will be just fine!
I know everything will be fine fine for me, and I trust for you as well.

But I can't help to be concerned about professing Christians who may end up carried away by vain philosophies. I knew I was saved by Jesus even when I believed Penal Substitution Theory. I know I was saved before I ever heard of Penal Substitution Theory. And having ditched the theory in favor of God's Word, I am not more saved than I was back then.

My concern ate those who think that they are saved through Penal Substitution Theory (not those who are saved snd end up a penal substitution theorists).

I am also concerned about all of those testimonies we looked at in the ago - those peoole who abandoned "organized religion" (assembling together) or Christisnity all together because they discovered what they were taught was not in Scripture....and to top it off they were taught by peoole claiming to adhere to sola scriptura.

But this is a concern I have for many who seek God only to be misled by men (like Jehovah Witnesses).

My biggest concern...well, not really a concern any more but a regret that once brought me shame....is that I actually taught Penal Substitution Theory to people desiring an understanding of theology. Greater was my condemnation as a teacher, but by God's grace I have been forgiven.

I told you how I came to ditch Penal Substitution Theory for Scriptute. That sermon was also the last I preached. I believe having allowed Penal Substitution Theory influence my sermon disqualified me from preaching. I still believe that and I'm OK with it. I may teach on occasion (taught during COVID as my church was in need). But I will never stand before a congregation and give a sermon. That drive, that gift, I forfeited (although forgiven there are consequences).
 

Charlie24

Active Member
I know everything will be fine fine for me, and I trust for you as well.

But I can't help to be concerned about professing Christians who may end up carried away by vain philosophies. I knew I was saved by Jesus even when I believed Penal Substitution Theory. I know I was saved before I ever heard of Penal Substitution Theory. And having ditched the theory in favor of God's Word, I am not more saved than I was back then.

My concern ate those who think that they are saved through Penal Substitution Theory (not those who are saved snd end up a penal substitution theorists).

I am also concerned about all of those testimonies we looked at in the ago - those peoole who abandoned "organized religion" (assembling together) or Christisnity all together because they discovered what they were taught was not in Scripture....and to top it off they were taught by peoole claiming to adhere to sola scriptura.

But this is a concern I have for many who seek God only to be misled by men (like Jehovah Witnesses).

My biggest concern...well, not really a concern any more but a regret that once brought me shame....is that I actually taught Penal Substitution Theory to people desiring an understanding of theology. Greater was my condemnation as a teacher, but by God's grace I have been forgiven.

I told you how I came to ditch Penal Substitution Theory for Scriptute. That sermon was also the last I preached. I believe having allowed Penal Substitution Theory influence my sermon disqualified me from preaching. I still believe that and I'm OK with it. I may teach on occasion (taught during COVID as my church was in need). But I will never stand before a congregation and give a sermon. That drive, that gift, I forfeited (although forgiven there are consequences).

The Foundation of Christianity is Jesus Christ' death, burial, and resurrection.

That is our salvation. The doctrines are built on that foundation, but doctrine whether correct or mistaken has never saved anyone.

We are discussing Doctrine, and it does not effect our salvation, which is the Foundation.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sorry....I thought we were talking about penal substitution (as relating to the Atonement).

Yes, Jesus suffered the wages of sin.
No, the type of substitution was not "penal substitution" (not instead of us)
He suffered so we don't. Substitution.
With that, I am out of this thread. This is where you play word games and I get mad and it doesn't end well.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The Foundation of Christianity is Jesus Christ' death, burial, and resurrection.

That is our salvation. The doctrines are built on that foundation, but doctrine whether correct or mistaken has never saved anyone.

We are discussing Doctrine, and it does not effect our salvation, which is the Foundation.
I said the same. That said, when you teach a doctrine you are held to a greater standard (hence Paul's caution about teaching).

I am not saying doctrine itself saves.

I am saying that people can be misled into believing they are saved, and people can leave the faith because they see false teaching or hypocrisy.

What would you say to a young man who discovers what he was being taught is not actually in the Bible? That it's what the Bible teaches? But then....why pick your "team"? The criteria becomes your understanding, your ears, your preferences, your traditions, your culture.....the criteria becomes you.

Have I actually seen younger people abandon religion altogether because they realized Penal Substitution Theory is not in the Bible? Yes. Have I seen young people leave because they realized the secular philosophy behind penal substitution did not work? Yes.


This is what I mean by being careful dealing with God's Word and what one teaches other people.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
He suffered so we don't. Substitution.
It is not word games. We disagree about the topic.

But yes....if Jesus died for our dins instead if us then that woukd be substitution.

The problem is this is not in Scripture.

What we end up arguing about is whether we should believe Scripture (my view) or what a sect believes is taught by Scripture.
 
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