Pensecola Christian Collage

BJU had a Southern Baptist Sunday School class for their SBC students in the 70's but I don't think they do now. I believe they do an amalgamated Sunday School class for everyone--that is everyone who wants to attend but many (IMHO, most?)don't.

 

I was under the impression that Sunday School classes at BJU are currently done by their collegian groups. At least that was what I was told when I visited the campus with potential students a couple years back.

 

In the early days, students went to Sunday School according to their denomination. That was when there was a considerable variety of denominations represented by the student body. Now a days, with most everyone IFB, students attend SS with their Society group (as Greg noted). A combined worship service is held on campus and then the students are encouraged to attend a local church in the evening.

Andy

 

Yep, that's an amalgamated Sunday School class. Not Baptist, not Methodist, not Presbyterian, not whatever, just a mixture of all of these. Of course that's what this thread is about--a collage.

 

Of course, Dr. Bob, there's a difference between a Fundamentalist and an IFB--isn't there? You've heard the story about Basil Manly, Jr. haven't you? It seems that Dr. W.B. Riley wrote to Bro. Basil and asked the Southern Baptists to join the Fundamentalists. Dr. Manly replied, "Dr. Riley, I'm sorry but we can't join your Fundamentalist movement because we are Baptists, not ecumenicists." I love it!

 

Historic fundamentalism included memebers from several denominations, not just Baptist. Bob Jones has always tried to maintain that historic position, providing a place for fundamentalists of whatever persuasion to get a solid, Bible-based education that stands against the apostasy of the day.

Andy

 

In the climate in which we live today, there are very few baptists in either the fundamental or more maintsream evangelical strain who strictly adhere to a "baptist-only" mentality. BJU and Pensacola have their faults- true. Show me a school that doesn't. I appreciate their contributions, even while questioning some of their decisions over the years. The reasons why they appeal to many fundamental Baptists, however, should be clear:

Perks- they both offer much in the way of programs offered, quality of facililities, etc. that most fundamental Baptist/Christian colleges cannot begin to match.

Position- they have successfully maintained a reasonably separatist position (room for discussion here, I know...)

Price- their tuitions are both very reasonable.

Publishing- let's face it- both Christian school and home taught students are very aware of these institutions through their education curriculum.

 

BJU is a relative latecomer to the Fundamentalist movement even though most people perceive BJ as the bastion of Fundamentalism. It was not always so. Dr. Bob G’s background is more of the historical line of Fundamentalism, specifically Baptist Fundamentalism (W. B. Riley, Clearwaters, et. al.), than the much later BJ variety. Both Dr. Bob, Sr. and Dr. Bob, Jr. were evangelicals, not necessarily Fundamentalists, early on. They may have taken a strong stand on orthodoxy and hobnobbed with some Fundamentalists but their primary association and thinking was evangelical. They were heavily involved with the NAE. Read Dan Turner’s Standing Without Apology. They were even opposed to Carl McIntire, who represented the most militant branch of Presbyterian Fundamentalism, and the ACCC. (Later, McIntire and the Jones’ were great pals.) The Dr. Bobs liked the more inclusivist stance of the NAE than the critical and fighting spirit of McIntire. Only after the NAE and Carl F. Henry offended them by slighting BJU, did they land solidly in the middle of fighting Fundamentalism. One wonders if BJU would have been the first neo-evangelical school, rather than Fuller, if the NAE had endorsed BJU and Henry had patronized them? What do you think? I would interested in your slant. Also, I would like to hear what Dr. Bob G. thinks about this.

 

You're right! There's a lot of compromise in this age when people denigrate doctrine. IMHO, doctrine, even specific Baptist doctrine, is important--even more important than what you feel or what is convenient or what is easy. There’s nothing wrong with sticking with Baptist doctrine (not Baptist Bride). My son, who is a Baptist missionary, is associated with a Baptist mission board and goes to Baptist churches on his deputation. Furthermore, I cannot conscience supporting Fundamentalist missionaries, who are not Baptists, to build Presbyterian, Methodist, or plain vanilla churches on the mission field. I want to support Baptist missionaries to plant gospel-preaching, Baptist churches. Let Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. support their own people, not me. No apologies and I’m not sorry for my convictions.

 

The problem is that they have loosened a lot of Baptist kids who went there from their Baptist convictions and local church emphasis. Baptist pastors don't appreciate their kids coming back Presbyterians.

 

I would agree insomuch as I do not think that either school would be my first choice to recieve exclusive ministry training (pastoral/missionary, etc.). I would not have a problem if the person was well-grounded and/or intended to pursue further seminary training at a distinctively baptist institution.

However, I'd rather have a Baptist kid go there and come back Bible presbyterian or "bible" (such as the Ohio Bible Fellowship folks) than I would send them to State U and come back post-modern or worse.

But, hey, that's me.

 

Neither PCC or BJU does an excellent job at training men for the ministry. There are far better Bible colleges that do a far better job.

 

I think the idea that kids are going to BJU Baptist and coming out Presbyterian is way overblown. I've noticed many of the preacher boys coming out wanting to use elders, some Reformed Baptist, but I haven't heard of any turning Presbyterian. Maybe I'm out of touch.


I do know that my Mom went in Methodist and came out Baptist. Does that count for anything?

Andy

 

I am told that the school that sends the most students to Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte is BJU--7 or 8 dozen is the number I have heard thrown around. That is purely anecdotal evidence, but I personally know two who grew up Baptists. One of them, at least, still is.

Should we be concerned with that? I don't know. Is it a bad thing if kids go in rejecting God's sovereignty in salvation and come out acknowledging His sovereignty but rejecting dispensationalism? Which is worse? I have mixed emotions.

 

I don’t know how well I can articulate this but I have a theory as to what is happening. In certain ways and within certain segments, I believe fundamentalism is changing in its approach to preaching and teaching. In times past, I think it was rare for fundamentalist preaching and teaching to be significantly expository. Most was topical, dealing with well known fundamentalist issues surrounding separation, whether personal or ecclesiastical. Sure, there were fundamentalist Bible teachers but none of it was really all that deep or scholarly. Some of this is generalization, I know, but think back to the 50’s-70’s and see if that isn’t so.

During the late 80’s and 90’s, a transition began, not just at Bob Jones, to emphasis expositional teaching and preaching. With that emphasis, the text becomes important, and sustained, detailed studying of Biblical material and books begin. Out goes the KJV and Sword of the Lord style ministry. In comes the study of the puritans, reformers, and non-devotional commentaries (nearly all written from a reformed standpoint). And most significantly, in comes developing your own view of theology and polity relying on your own prayer and study rather than simply fundamentalist tradition. Scofield dispensationalism doesn’t click for a lot of these people; neither does many of the traditional fundamentalist standards for living.

Right or wrong, good or bad. That’s what I think is happening.

Andy

 

There is some validity to what you are saying, I would think. Leading conservative evangelical voices like John MacArthur and John Piper, for example, may not be strictly Reformed, but there is a degree of attraction there from both sides. It's not just BJU- consider the resources that many Baptists (and not just Fundamentalists) are using today or have used for some time, such as Jay Adams and Nouthetic Counseling, Evangelism Explosion (D. James Kenneedy), and WORLD Magazine- their influence is far reaching, and their materials have depth and reflect hours of preparation and careful study Fundamental Baptist writings have often sadly lacked.

 

I would agree with both of you. I think that our colleges that we send young preacher boys to has also had a huge impact. I know that PCC had a big impact on my views of Scripture. Part of the problem is that we have gone from one extreme to another. My assistant and I were talking about this last night. A balance of expository and topical preaching is necessary. A balance of "traditional fundamentalist standards" and "development of our own theology" has to be reached. In the OT, Israel had no king and everyone did that which was right in their own eyes. I think that many Christians don't have a king (Christ) and therefore do that which is right in their own eyes.

 

The John's are very, very popular at BJU.