Pentecostal Baptist?

Define God healing? Does He miraculously heal men? Yes Does someone have the gift of healing today as seen in scripture? Look to scripture to see the gift, Acts 5:

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

13And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

First it says by the hands of the Apostle were many signs and wonders. The key to the gift of healing is verse 15 "the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them" just Peters shadow could heal them. Do we see that type of healing today?

The gift of Apostle has ceased today, why do I say that because there is no one that meets one very specific qualification that Paul made clear.

1 Corinthians 9: 1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

Notice verse 1 Paul says he was an Apostle because he had seen Jesus Christ our Lord, when on the Road to Damascus. Paul saw and talked with the risen Lord. Very clear and specific qualification for one to be an Apostle.
The sign and wonders gift ceased with the death of the last Apostle. Which was probably John.

 

The spiritual gifts as described in 1Cor.11 were special supernatural gifts. They were given for a temporary period of time.

There were 12 apostles. Their names will be written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. Their office no longer exists today.

I never said that God doesn't heal.
I said the gift of healing doesn't exist any longer. There is a big difference. I will give you an example. Peter had the gift of healing as demonstrated here:

Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:15-16)

Who came to be healed? The sick in Jerusalem, and a multitude from all the cities around Jerusalem bringing with them sick and vexed with unclean spirits. Did Peter turn away any--broken legs, arms, paraplegics, those ER cases? Did he turn any one away? Did he just heal those under the scope of his own TV environment? The answer is obvious. He healed every one of them, no matter what their infirmity was.
--This is the gift of healing.

In our modern day age it would be the equivalent of a "faith-healer" to go to the ER of a hospital, and up and down the various corridors and heal all that are in the hospital--put it out of business so to speak. Are there any willing to take the challenge? Of course not. They don't have the gift of healing. It isn't in operation today. It has ceased.

 

Think that we are ALL agreeing here on the Apostles/prophets, canon etc...

just was asking though can God still direct/guide/lead by his Holy Spirit through any other means than the Bible?

And i would clarifyn this by saying NEVER would say "thus says the Lord" take that as "Gospel" just asking can't God still work through Holy Spirit Gifts if he chose to today?

 

Since God is Omnipotent He can work in any manner He chooses. He even chooses to work through Doctors. Almost every Petecostal I have come across didn't believe in using a Doctor. A coworker I once worked with told of his brother dieing because their grand father a staunch Pentacostal wouldn't take him to a Doctor.

James said if we were sick to call the elders and have them annoint with oil and pray over the sick. Again oil was a medicine in those days, so prayer and medicine are for healing. God is still able to work miracles too.

 

there are as many 'shades" of pentcosalists as there are in calvinism though...

Sounds like your experience was with those who held to "healing provided for ion the atonement" divine wealth and health, God will is not to be sick, but to heal IF you have enough faith...

My wife had to have her retina reattached, one son tore acl had to do surgery, so we are NOT of that group!

was just thinking of someone like Charles Stanley, who has said that the Lord "showed" him via a "vision" in his mind while praying with his Elder board how to do a "jericho march" with Himself and Elders 7 days around a property that they felt God was going to give them as new Church home, and on 7th day of the march, the owner called and offerred them the [roperty at less than market value!

Also, didn't even Augustine claim that God "spoke" to him to direct him to take up the Bible and start to read it?

 

When God leads a person to a foreign mission field, for example, he often uses more than just the Bible. He uses circumstances. But most of all he gives an inward peace that can never be surpassed.

He doesn't go against his nature, and he doesn't go against his word. Remember the definition of "gift." We haven't seen the operation of those gifts in history for 2000 years; I wouldn't have any reason to expect them now. That doesn't rule out what God is able to do with an individual.
For example, we have heard countless testimonies how God has healed in specific individual cases, mostly through answer to prayers.

Another example of God's grace. William Carey was a simple cobbler who repaired shoes. God called him to the mission field. He never had a formal education. By the time of his death he had translated the Bible or parts of the Bible into 47 different languages in India. Is that the gift of tongues (languages)? No. It is hard work coupled with a unique ability that God gave to Carey.

 

I know folks that say a still small voice talks to them about Spiritual matters. That would be the Holy Spirit stirring in us, again not a sign gift but an indwelling of the Spirit in a Spirit filled believer.

 

I would be glad to concede your to your position if you can prove that John had the entire completed cannon of scripture in mind when he wrote that. I believe your position takes his words out of context. In Rev 1:3 it clearly indicates the context as meaning the words in Revelation and gives no room for anything else. There is no doubt that all of scripture is inspired by God, but the entire cannon of scripture as we know it today was not in view anywhere in Revelation.

 

John did not write the book of Revelation, per se; the Holy Spirit did. Thus it is the Holy Spirit that guided John to write 1:3 admonishing us to read and take heed to the things written in the book, and the same Holy Spirit that tells us:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18)

John was the youngest of the disciples, and the one to have outlived them all. This was his last book, and thus put at the end of the canon of the NT, and appropriately so.

John knew that he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as he was told to write these things down by God himself. The apostles knew which epistles were inspired and which were not.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)
--Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture. Even though Paul had written more than just the 13 epistles contained in our canon he also wrote to the Laodiceans, and two more epistles to the Corinthians. But both Paul and Peter knew which ones were inspired.

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: (2 Peter 3:1-2)
--If you study verse two carefully here you notice that the Bible is divided into two parts: the OT written by the prophets, and the NT written by the apostles. Peter tells them to keep in remembrance the words of Christ and the apostles (that is the NT), and puts them on the same level as the inspired OT.

To say that the canon is still open today is a ridiculous position to take.
First, according to the Bible, every prophecy would have to be verified, and everyone that had uttered a false prophecy would have to be taken out and stoned. Would you do the honors?

Second you have an editorial problem. From the first century until now and all over the globe, if the gifts are still in operation, then all those words of knowledge, those prophecies, those messages in tongues (languages) are all inspired. Whether they are from believers in Africa, Asia or here they all have to be gathered up, collated, and put into great tomes (for there are many), because all would now be a part of the canon. All the "I have a word from the Lord), the vision from God, the dream from the Lord, the word of knowledge, what God spoke to me, etc. They all have to be collected and made available for all. Otherwise how will we know what God's complete Word is? We can't. Will you be the "chief-editor-in-charge"?

Third, you have no answer for the total lack of evidence of any of the sign gifts taking place today. If the canon was not closed, revelation would be accompanied by signs and wonders. But those have ceased. There are no tongues, no miracles, no prophecy; none of these gifts that can be exercised in a Biblical way today.

 

I believe in the plenary, infallible, and inerrant word of God. I also believe that to try to separate God's inspiration from the knowledge and context of the author He chose for the book is a poor hermeneutic and not consistent with determining sound doctrine.

I have not said it is open and do not believe it is necessary to assume such just because there is no declaration from scripture that it has. As Christians we need to learn to be comfortable with what we do not know as much as we are with what we do know. And stop working to create our own doctrine where scripture is silent just to defend against other false doctrine.

I did not say they were so I have no problem. It is not necessary for them to be proclaimed ceased in order for that fact to be true. Neither does a lack of proclamation make any of those events true or inspired. That is a poor logic. If we want to debate the gifts issue, stick with the nature and purpose of them instead. That in and of itself will sufficiently deal with the false claims.

Again, I need not provide an answer because I have not made any claims of any sign gifts taking place today. I would also say that all the claims I have seen of these gifts are false simply because they are used or falsified for purposes other than signs. That alone discredits them without creating claims that are not in scripture and failing to consider the appropriate context and understanding of the author. When you do that you will get it wrong every time. As the old saying goes, "Context is King!"

 

That response was unkind and unnecessary. Maybe you should take a breath before you post.

And if you are going to respond at all make sure you read all that is posted so you do not make this mistake in your response. I did not say that it referred to Christ.

 

There is a huge difference between Christ the person and the return of Christ the action.And your angry response in unwarranted. Again I will leave you to your anger.

 

I don't want to talk with you at all. Your response is unkind and fails to display Christian character. God Bless.

 

mandym's posts

--Notice your contradiction in this post (50) and in post 26. Back in post 26 you are adamant that the Scripture is still open; that it is not yet closed. Now you contradict yourself saying you have not said it is open. Which statement is true. Post 26 or post 50? They say the opposite. One says open; the other says closed.

--More? You were defending the gifts a little while ago. Now you admit that they have ceased. Is this deliberate deception? And for what reason? Your statement in post #17 infers a belief that the gifts have not yet ceased.

 

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So the purpose of Prophecy, Knowledge and Tonugues. These were to communicate the mystery doctrine, the church. The Apostles declared in word and writing the divine word of the mystery of the Church and the Gospel of Christ. This has been accomplished and the gift of Prophecy ended in 96 A.D. with the writting of the book of Revelation.

Knowledge- gnosis - here in 1 Corinthians 13:8 it is refering to absolute spiritual truth. That is what it took for the writers of the O.T. and N.T to communicate the absolute truth. Do you know anyone today who you can say teaches or preaches absolute truth. I don't, when I preach I let the Holy Spirit guide but can I let my teaching get in the way very possible. We try but I can't say anyone has the absolute truth but the writers of the early church books that the Holy Spirit insprired to write and inspired those who brought the Bible together did.

Tongues - glossa - Languages this was for edifying those in the church. Now keep in mind in the early church many folks came from other places and they heard the Gospel in their own native tongue. Tongues was a gift to communicate the word to the hearer not as sign of some great spiritual person receiving it. When tongues were spoken Paul insisted that 2 or 3 interpreters be present. For the edifying of the church, not the speaker. This again is not happening today.

Perfect - telion - the nueter form means it cannot refer to the masculine form of Jesus, nor to the millinium or heaven. Completed in verse ten it means completed, as "that" which is completed. means somethig other than a person. So if the gift of Apostle has ended and it has, if prophecy, language and tongues as seen above in their nature and purpose have ended then what was the "THAT" which comes then that which is in part is done away.

Straight translation greek to english of verse 10:

But when the (telion) completed (perfect or ended) comes, the partial will be done away.

So when we take it in context from the Greek it all comes together.