Pentecostalism Proven wrong, By the Bible

[Link]

Mr. Lowery

KJV-onlyists who say that the KJV is inspired go beyond your standard Pentecostal. Pentecostals generally believe God still gives prophecies, but does not have people write inspired scripture.

But KJV onlyists go beyond that, believing that God gave some translators in 1611 the same level of inspiration he gave the apostles. You say they did not write anything beside what the apostles wrote, but one could say that of any translation. Unless they had the kind of prophetic inspiration the apostles did, why would their translation be inspired?


The Bible does not teach that 'the Bible is all their is.' In fact, Jesus did not tell the apostles that He would send them a book that would lead them into all truth. He said that He would send the Spirit that would lead them into all truth. And the reason we believe in the New Testament is because we believe it reveals that truth that the Spirit revealed to the apostles.

But Paul also prayed that the saints would have the Spirit of revelation. The Bible is not all there is. There is also the Holy Spirit.

And the Bible also commands us things like 'despise not prophesyings' and to 'covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues.' So if we obey the Bible, we will not reject these gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rev. Lowery: //There is no speaking against 1 corinthians 13 8-11
if you disagree your not in the word and what you say
and believe is a lie made by Satan.//

Thank you for your pharisaical saying.
I've not been told off so good since the athiest called
me a "self-righteous /expletive deleted/" for having a bumper
sticker that suggests God created the Universe.
Specifically it said:

I believe in the Big Bang:
God said it and BANG, it happened

Here is how I read your message:

There is no speaking against What I think
1 corinthians 13:8-11 means. If you disagree
with me you're not in the word and what you say
and believe is a lie made by Satan.
Sorry Bubba, but IMHO we have a difference in what we
understand 1 corinthians 13:8-11 to mean. BTW, I have
been eating meat for 49 years (I've been a Christian for 54
years) and serving meat in my local Church for 30 of the
last 35 years.

Tamborine Lady: //To Ed, who actually asked a question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pentecostal means someone who believes that the gift of tongues,
as spoken of in the NT are still in effect today.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//

Thank you. It is nice to have someone in this thread that
is discussing the issue instead of dissing & cussing the people.

Tamborine Lady: //I prefer Full Gospel because I believe that the things that
happened in the NT can still happen today. I believe all
the gospel(good news) is alive and well.//

Yep. 'Full gospel' is good.

I like "Carismatic" cause I know 'caris' is the Greek word
for the English 'grace'. So 'Carismatic' means 'graceful'
So 'carismatic' means the same as what you said 'pentecostal' means,
but has no UPC (in-your-face, unitarian, post-trib, one-manisfestation
of-the-Holy-Spirt only, etc.) baggage.

Unlike the UPC which teaches that the world ends when Jesus
returns after the Tribulation period, I believe in the pretribulation
rapture of the global church. So the physical world continues after the
Second Coming of Jesus. So when does 'that which is perfect' comes?
Some say the First Coming of Jesus - so tongues are done away with.
I say the Second Coming of Jesus, when the perfect Jesus stays on the
physcial earth. Everytime i read the newspaper, I realise that
which is perfect is not dwelling among human kind today.

I think 'prophesy' is still a living gift. It just doesn't mean
the world's meaning of 'divining the future'.
'Prophecy' does NOT mean what you suggest it means above.
In fact, your anti-Hinn post above is a royal waste of
37K of Webmaster's space - space he pays for, not you.
And to what end? Does anybody here think Hinn is anything but
a TV actor?

Ray Berrian: //The true meaning is that 'prophecy, knowledge, and tongues'
will cease at the return of Christ for His bride--the church.
And, of course, 'charity/love' will never cease//

Amen, Brother Doctor Ray Berrian -- Preach it.
I can speak in tongues. But there wouldn't dare be anybody in
my local Baptist Church who would interpert, so I will keep my mouth
shut. OBTW, i'm also the head usher, so i'd have to 'usher out' one
who dared interpert

Link: //‘Matthew Henry’, you argue against a number of things that Pentecostals
do not really believe, as if they do. Plus, some of his arguments
are based on a misunderstanding of scripture. You may wish
to edit your article after this.//

Thank you. I thought i was going to have to do that
and am up to my armpits in Widow/Deacon annual Christimas Fellowship preps.

 

[Ed Edwards]

From Pastor Jack Hyles:
//Where is the final authority for church building
and for Christian living? There are four different
final authorities in American Christendom.
...
3. SOME VIEW HUMAN REASONING AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY.
4. SOME VIEW THE BIBLE AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY.//

Well, he was too blind to see:

5. SOME VIEW THEIR MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE KJB* AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY.

*KJB = King James Bible, the King James Version, 1769 Edition


1 Corinthians 14:34 (HCSB)
the women* should be silent in the churches, for they
are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive,
as the law also says

Footnote *14:34 Other mss read your women

I note that this BB (Baptist Board) is NOT church and
the woman is question is not my Mother, my Wife, or my Daughter.
So let her speak freely subject only to the 'test the spirts' rule.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (HCSB):
since God is not a GOd of disorder but of peace

(some reading 17th century (1601-1700) english where
'confusion' meant what 'disorder' means today think
that 'confusion' means 'disagreement'.

So this scripture is used by some as a club to bully others
into accepting what the some figure God means. It should be
used in love to help people work together; but is used to divide
brother from sister, sister from sister, and brother from brother.

Pentacostals are our sisters and brothers in Christ.
You are praying for them to have a good success, yes?

Ray Berrian: //Link, from Indonesia,
I read the first half of your post and the end of it.
Your view is Scriptural and I agree with it.//

Right on Brother Dr. Ray Berrian -- Preach it!

Ray Berrian: //Few people receive all of the gifts. Mine gift is preaching
and teaching and 'rightly dividing the Word of truth.'//

Mine are Teachin' and Discernment: figuring out if you
are 'rightly dividing the word of truth' right or not.
BTW, 'teaching' and 'rightly dividing the word of truth' are
redundant gifts.

 

[MatthewHenry]

Wow! 7 pages man! Holy catfish! I never thought this thread would go on this long...

I've still yet to see you pentecostal's prove me wrong with solid scriptural proof. (without taking out of context and distorting God's Word.)

Put 7 Pages?!?!? WOW!

MH

 

[tamborine lady]

Excuse me Ed, but uh er well, I think you missed this one:

1 Cor 13-10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Do you know Jesus as well now as He knows you??

Verse 11 and 12 are further explaining verse 10.

Seems to me that nobody knows him YET like He kbows us. Therefore the perfect has not yet come!

Selah,

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

Matthew Henry,

Most if not all of your scripture that you gave in your first post was supposition on your part.

In other words, your scriptures do not mean what you say they do. Therefore, to keep giving you scripture which you continually misinterpret is of no value to anyone.

But I pray that when you are done kicking and screaming, and calm down, then God will show you the truth( which you know already in your spirit.)

Have a nice day,

Tam

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by MatthewHenry:
I've still yet to see you pentecostal's prove me wrong with solid scriptural proof. (without taking out of context and distorting God's Word.)

I just checked everybody
who posted. Not a one is 'Pentecostal'.
So of just whom do you speak?

Feel free to check the PROFILES of the posters
here.

BTW, I know of as many people whose testimonies
speak ill of your religion as the religion
of 'pentecolstals' (which you never did define
so we could know what it was you were talking
about).

BTW, I'm too busy to post.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Matthew Henry,

Most if not all of your scripture that you gave in your first post was supposition on your part.

In other words, your scriptures do not mean what you say they do. Therefore, to keep giving you scripture which you continually misinterpret is of no value to anyone.

But I pray that when you are done kicking and screaming, and calm down, then God will show you the truth( which you know already in your spirit.)

Have a nice day,

Tam

All I have time for is one of his misunderstood
scriptures explained maybe every third day.
And that will keep this thread open through
March

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I find this a hard subject to talk about. It seems there is evidence to support both sides. I guess we are all right, but some say, "well because of my experiane I believe.", If you dont experiance something that doesnt mean its not true. I guess I came to the conclusion in my own mind about this subject long ago because of the "EXPERIANCE" I had at a pentacost church they didnt follow the Bible at all. So I am sorry for being prejudice. It's not Christian of me to state your wrong and I am right about the word of God, as long as its not contradicting.
I dont think we have ever contradicted one another. I am struggling with removing all the bad stuff I have learned and relearn the word of God. Alot of my old habits have followed me down this new road. My wife on the other hand has no bad habits. Pray for us that together we can come to understand the striptures in harmony not only as a family but with other Christians aswell.

As long as we all agree

1. Christ is Lord and Savior
2. Christ is the only way to Heaven
3. Christ lives in your heart.
Then these are the things that matter.

How we worship God is an individual process. If you keep to the bible and the Holy Ghost doesnt make you feel like your doing something wrong then you are good.

Sometimes I am wrong sometimes I am right, Gods word is never wrong. How we as humans see it in our flawed ungodly flesh is not always right no matter how hard you want it to be. This isnt saying that pentacost is right or wrong, or baptist is right or wrong. Simple that only God is truth, love, and all powerful in all ways to all people at all times.

I cant prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that any Christian Bible Believer is right or wrong unless the go totally against Gods Word. Then and only then should we reprove them of there error. I apologize to tamborine lady for my comment. I misunderstood and took out of context what you said.

I can say this for any denomination you dont follow the word your wrong.
If your heart is truly in the will of God your worship will be meaningful, powerful, and believable to all who witness it.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[tamborine lady]

Apology accepted Rev Lowery. I've done that too, no big deal.

One of my problems is that there are so many posts, I can't read them all thourghly, and I miss stuff.

Anyway, I was kinda like your wife, when I got saved. I had not been to church hardly at all, so in a way I was a fresh slate for the Lord to work with.

Tell her to just pray and ask God to guide the both of you, and He will show you His truth. (not mine or any mans, but His)

God bless,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

According to some of you God's gifts to the church like 'the gifts of the Spirit,' ended in 70 A.D. What an interesting day for the Lord to cut off His gifts to the church. If you men studied the Word and knew it well you would agree with the Lord speaking through the Apostle Paul in Romans 11:29.

If a Christian sins this does not nullify his salvation and that is why some carnal Christians in the Pentecostal movement still retain the gift of 'tongues' because God does not withdraw His so great salvation.

Now for the Word of God;

'. . . the gifts and call of God are without repentance.'

If the Lord withdrew 'the gifts of the Spirit' one might begin to think that He no longer thanks that baptism by immersion were all that important also.

Or perhaps attending the church every Lord's Day might have been just to 'jump start' the early church.

With this philosophy we might withdraw layers of Christian teaching like you would an onion.

Once gifts are given to the Christian Church they are never withdrawn until He comes as stated in I Corinthians 13:10. When Christ comes then the value of 'the gifts of the Spirit' will fade.

To back up what I am saying I refer to another doctor of the church, Dr. S. Lewis Johnson, Jr. Th.D. Professor of N.T. Literature and Exegesis, Dallas Theological Seminary where he says, in the Wycliffe Bible Commentary,

'The coming of that which is perfect can only be a reference to the Lord's Second Coming. That event will mark the end of the exercise of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. How then can one speak of these gifts as temporary? . . . . The illustration is designed to show the character of the period between the two comings of Christ {I rather believe he means Jesus' birth and the Second Coming of Christ} They were given for purposes of authentication(Hebrews 2:3-4) and edification (I Corinthians 14:3) when there was no N.T. {Bible) to give light.

Dr. Johnson is probably right that it refers to the Second Coming in stead of the coming of Christ for His Church because their will be preaching during the Great Tribulation as noted with the two prophets in the Book of Revelation. [Revelation 11:3].

The point of we two theologians is that 'the gifts of the Spirit' are still in vogue because this is the Age of the Spirit until the Spirit of God is taken from the world at the Rapture. This age is also referred to as the Age of Grace as in counter distinction to the Age of the Law.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[tamborine lady]

Brother Ray B said: The point of we two theologians is that 'the gifts of the Spirit' are still in vogue because this is the Age of the Spirit until the Spirit of God is taken from the world at the Rapture. This age is also referred to as the Age of Grace as in counter distinction to the Age of the Law.

I coudn't agree more!!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[music4Him]

Thank you Ray and that make so much since.

 

[Link]

Originally posted by MatthewHenry:
I've still yet to see you pentecostal's prove me wrong with solid scriptural proof. (without taking out of context and distorting God's Word.)

MH [/QB]

Maybe you haven't read my post, or Ray's for that matter. I would appreciate a point by point response to my post in which I proved you wrong with solid scriptural proof.

 

[music4Him]

Link for that matter he didn't touch mine either.

 

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
hillclimber,

The woman in your post should have read and understood God's message to us through the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 12:30. She probably read the very but still deeply wanted said gift. To bad for her. One of Satan's strategims is to discourage the true Christian so they do not show the happiness and joy of serving the Lord. In this state of mind they will also neglect witnessing to the saving power of Jesus from sin.

Few people receive all of the gifts. Mine gift is preaching and teaching and 'rightly dividing the Word of truth.'

I do not seek any more gifts, but do try to make sure that I have the 'fruit of the Spirit' so I can minister to other human needs.

Ray

Good on you brother, carry on the good fight, for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. The last chapt. of Ephesians, think I.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by MatthewHenry:
Wow! 7 pages man! Holy catfish! I never thought this thread would go on this long...

I've still yet to see you pentecostal's prove me wrong with solid scriptural proof. (without taking out of context and distorting God's Word.)

Put 7 Pages?!?!? WOW!
I did not know that catfish were holy?
MH

 

[tamborine lady]

Matthew Henry said: I've still yet to see you pentecostal's prove me wrong with solid scriptural proof. (without taking out of context and distorting God's Word.)

Tam says: You proved yourself wrong by making statements that are incorrect.

Therefore there is nothing to prove.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hey, some here say if you wanted to experience speaking in 'tongues' or in church to hear a message in 'tongues' with the 'interpretation of tongues' you had to do it before 70 A.D.

This is the biggest joke that anyone could possibly think up and then to say it is even more crazy.

TAM, these empty heads would try to make their constituents think that the 'gifts of the Spirit' are not from the Lord and instead attribute them to the Devil.

How many times can people say this before they commit the unpardonable sin? I am sure the numerical number varies with different people.

 

[Bob]

Matthew Henery, you seem to be one of those who spend more words on what you don't believe than on what you do believe. Baptist and Chruch of Christ are the worst offenders here. For instance, it's Baptist and Church of Christ who deny Paul his Road to Damascus conversion. The Church of Christ says he wasn't saved until he was baptised; the Baptisis say he wasn't saved until he recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (which clearly comes after conversion, and doesn't come to all Christians). As far as tongues and other Gifts of the Spirit are concerned, nowhere in the Scripture does it say that they will cease during the Church Age. (No, 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 does not say that supernatural acts of God have ceased). Actually, I can see no reason for your post other than to call attention to yourself.