Pentecostals and Calvinists

[J.D.]

Are they at theological poles? Oddly enough, in a certain way, I don't think so. Here I am thinking of old-fashioned pentacostals, not these post-modern word-faith money lovers of today. I'm talking about the old Holiness crowd that hated sin.

There is a sense in which the C's and the P's are very similar. Here it is: the P's recognize that salvation (along with healings and such) are by the power of the Holy Ghost. The old P's would never say "just say this prayer and you'll be saved". They would say "you gotta have the Holy Ghost! Pray! Pray!" Isn't that very close to what Calvinists believe?

 

[J.D.]

Deleted. Changed my mind.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Not similar at all from what I know of both. Pentecostals believe in a works salvation, no election anywhere to be found! They are about as far from Calvin as a person can be.

Pentecostals also have no assurance of salvation. You commit a sin (knowingly or unknowingly) and die before you have a chance to confess and you are lost!

 

[donnA]

Nothing alike or even similar.

 

[Blammo]

Are they at theological poles? Oddly enough, in a certain way, I don't think so. Here I am thinking of old-fashioned pentacostals, not these post-modern word-faith money lovers of today. I'm talking about the old Holiness crowd that hated sin.

There is a sense in which the C's and the P's are very similar. Here it is: the P's recognize that salvation (along with healings and such) are by the power of the Holy Ghost. The old P's would never say "just say this prayer and you'll be saved". They would say "you gotta have the Holy Ghost! Pray! Pray!" Isn't that very close to what Calvinists believe?

I would agree with you, J.D..

My cousin is very much like the old Pentacostals. Although they differ from you on Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement, I think they are with you on Total Depravity, Irresistable Grace, and Perserverance of the Saints. He believes that anyone can be saved if they will fully understand their guilt, and call on the Lord from a totally guilty and repentant heart. If a person does not do this and claims to be saved, that person is a false convert and will continue a life of sinful rebellion toward God. He believes that when a person becomes truly saved, because they are indwelt by the Holy Ghost, they are incapable of sinning. He also believes if you have a satelite dish and a big screen television, you are not truly saved. He believes his dad is going to hell because his dad chews Skoal Bandits. He believes his brothers entire family are going to hell because his neice wears tank tops and pants. (I'm with him on some of this, except for the last few lines or so)

 

[J.D.]

I would agree with you, J.D..

My cousin is very much like the old Pentacostals. Although they differ from you on Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement, I think they are with you on Total Depravity, Irresistable Grace, and Perserverance of the Saints. He believes that anyone can be saved if they will fully understand their guilt, and call on the Lord from a totally guilty and repentant heart. If a person does not do this and claims to be saved, that person is a false convert and will continue a life of sinful rebellion toward God. He believes that when a person becomes truly saved, because they are indwelt by the Holy Ghost, they are incapable of sinning. He also believes if you have a satelite dish and a big screen television, you are not truly saved. He believes his dad is going to hell because his dad chews Skoal Bandits. He believes his brothers entire family are going to hell because his neice wears tank tops and pants. (I'm with him on some of this, except for the last few lines or so)

Hello Blammo, good to have someone on my side here - I think you see what I'm getting at.

Actually, I didn't intend to say that the theologies of P and C were alike, but that they are MORE alike than modern revivalist theologies.

I gues what I'm hinting at is, theologically speaking, Arminianism (as it was held by Arminius, the remonstrants, and Wesley) is much closer to Calvinism than people think. Arminiansim can be said to be a branch of Calvinism (although I think that's really not correct, but some have done it). Here's why: Arminius recognized the total depravity of man and the need for the quickening of the Spirit to life. Modern so-called "biblicists" (inbetweeners) wind up making salvation a naturalprocess. That's the basis of Pelagianism. Add your faith to Christ's work to get saved. You can be saved if you just pray this prayer. God will save you no matter what as long as you are willing. See what I mean?

Pentacostals (am I spelling that right?) recognize the need for God to "move", to convict, to change people. So do we Calvinists. But granted, that's where the similarity ends. Arminians see the enabling (saving) grace as imparted indescriminately to all people. Calvinists see the enabling (saving) grace imparted to the elect only.

One note on Perseverence: Pentacostals (as Arminians) doctrine of perseverence is completely backwards from Calvinism. They see salvation as the fruit and perseverence as the root. Calvinism sees it the other way around. Salvation is the root, perseverence is the fruit.

 

[rsr]

I guess what I'm hinting at is, theologically speaking, Arminianism (as it was held by Arminius, the remonstrants, and Wesley) is much closer to Calvinism than people think.

I would absolutely agree.

Now, as to whether Pentecostals and Calvinists have similarities ...

I really don't see it.

Pentacostals (am I spelling that right?) recognize the need for God to "move", to convict, to change people. So do we Calvinists. But granted, that's where the similarity ends. Arminians see the enabling (saving) grace as imparted indescriminately to all people. Calvinists see the enabling (saving) grace imparted to the elect only.

The first part may be true of some Pentecostals, but I don't think it holds true of the majority. Just as salvation is a gift to be sought, so is entire sanctification — but it has transmogrified from the culmination of a process into an instantaneous experience, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The connection between entire sanctification and the Baptism tends have have broken down in modern Pentecostalism, but it remains true that the Baptism is more a gift to be sought, not a gift that is bestowed only by the sovereignty of God.