People stink

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is this the gospel? I love Jesus because He loves people who stink. I do not love people who stink, but just God who loves people who stink.

I think we need to back track and look for the point where we left the rails.

Yes but he predistined them to stink....but only those who are enlightened, take baths! :smilewinkgrin:

Now shall we have an argument over the type of soap used and who made that selection?

 

[OldRegular]

So, in your view God is just this incredibly self-centered and narcissistic person who only loves us because we are made in his image?

Dude, you are seriously messed up. It is Satan who is self-centered and wants all glory for himself, not God.

I don't know about all that Winman. Looking at just one book in the Bible we see a lot about giving Glory to God. One verse, Revelation 4:11, even tells us the why of Creation.

Re 1:6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Re 4:9. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Re 4:11. Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Re 5:12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Re 5:13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Re 7:12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Re 11:13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Re 14:7. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Re 15:8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Re 16:9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Re 19:1. And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Re 21:11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Re 21:23. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

 

[Winman]

I don't know about all that Winman. Looking at just one book in the Bible we see a lot about giving Glory to God. One verse, Revelation 4:11, even tells us the why of Creation.

Re 1:6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Re 4:9. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Re 4:11. Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Re 5:12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Re 5:13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Re 7:12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Re 11:13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Re 14:7. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Re 15:8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Re 16:9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Re 19:1. And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Re 21:11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Re 21:23. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

If God was obsessed with his own glory, he would not have become flesh and lived as a man. He would not have been a carpenter, and he would not have given his life for sinful man.

The Calvinist view of God is so out of touch with reality to be unbelievable. You guys make God to be vain and narcissistic, and absolutely self-centered. He burns people in hell for his glory. Wow.

What would you think of a man who burned people in fire to glorify himself?

 

[Winman]

Here's the last person I remember who believed in burning the non elect.



He loved glory too.

 

[DHK]

Yes but he predistined them to stink....but only those who are enlightened, take baths! :smilewinkgrin:

Now shall we have an argument over the type of soap used and who made that selection?

Now that would mean that the ungodly and unsaved Romans were more "enlightened" then the Christians:

"In A.D. 500, the Christian church, seeing how the lewd Romans had thrived in their social hot tubs, decreed that exposing one’s skin was a sin against God."

It was the Christians that made it a sin to bathe.

Just be content to have a bath once a year and keep dousing yourself with perfume the rest of the year.

"As a result, bathing fell out of favor and people resorted to dousing themselves in perfume.
The decree also led to the belief that bathing was how disease was spread: that the warmth and the water opened up one’s skin to “pestiferous vapors” that caused diseases like the plague.
Diseases flourished as a result of these attitudes, yet they simply furthered the belief that even infrequent bathing was the culprit.
During this era of bathroom history, bathing once a year was not uncommon."

This "Christian" attitude of cleanliness lasted for over a thousand years.
There was also a ritual attached to it.

"Instead of regular bathing, people wiped their bodies with pieces of thy white cloth. When they did get up the courage to bathe, they were very careful.
They got plenty of rest both before and after the event.
Then as soon as they were scrubbed clean, they quickly wrapped their bodies completely in cloth to block it from harmful diseases.
This attitude lasted for over a millennium in some places."


Be thankful for Benjamin Franklin. He got the ball rolling in the right direction.



"In fact, Benjamin Franklin was a pioneer in the 1700s for promoting bathing as a healthy activity."
http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.co...tian-church-once-rule-that-bathing-was-a-sin/


As for the bathtub itself, as we know it--with running hot and cold water, it was not invented until the 20th century.



But for all that info, it doesn't help with one's sin. Jeremiah knew that:
Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here's the last person I remember who believed in burning the non elect.



He loved glory too.

You love glory as well.

Mans glory.

It's your gospel -- the glorification of man and downgrade of God.

Yes, he too loved glory, and to continue his error, not unlike anti-cals/arminians, he chose to elect himself and others via his own free will and determination and act in the stead of God.

 

[Winman]

You love glory as well.

Mans glory.

It's your gospel -- the glorification of man and downgrade of God.

Yes, he too loved glory, and to continue his error, not unlike anti-cals/arminians, he chose to elect himself and others via his own free will and determination and act in the stead of God.

It finally occurred to me why Calvinists think non Cals glorify themselves when they come to Jesus for forgiveness. Because that is YOUR mentality. You guys are ELITE, you are the CHOSEN ONES, you are the ELECT. You think everyone thinks like YOU do. It is all about YOU. You are self-centered just like your Calvinist God.

Read the story of the publican. He simply cast himself on God's mercy. He was humble, and God forgave him. This is the non Cal and Arminian attitude, something YOU do not understand. How can you? You are the ELECT.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Did the publican come to God of his own free will? YES. Did he exalt himself? NO.

You just don't get that do you? You think everyone thinks like YOU.

 

[OldRegular]

If God was obsessed with his own glory, he would not have become flesh and lived as a man. He would not have been a carpenter, and he would not have given his life for sinful man.

God cannot die Winman!

IThe Calvinist view of God is so out of touch with reality to be unbelievable. You guys make God to be vain and narcissistic, and absolutely self-centered. He burns people in hell for his glory. Wow.

What would you think of a man who burned people in fire to glorify himself?

Winman I quote Scripture and you go off on some incoherent tirade about Calvinists. What is your problem? Did any of the Scripture I posted say God burned people in hell for his Glory?

 

[Winman]

God cannot die Winman!

Jesus is God, and Jesus died on the cross.

Winman I quote Scripture and you go off on some incoherent tirade about Calvinists. What is your problem? Did any of the Scripture I posted say God burned people in hell for his Glory?

Exactly, YOU actually think I was talking to YOU don't YOU? YOU prove my point.

It is Calvinism that claims God sends people to hell for his glory, when God says he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The scriptures say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but Calvinism teaches that God NEEDS evil so he can punish sinners to glorify himself. He COULD save them in your view, but he would rather glorify himself by torturing sinners forever in your view. Utterly disgraceful.

How can you reason with folks who believe such horrendous evil? You guys are insane.

 

[OldRegular]

It finally occurred to me why Calvinists think non Cals glorify themselves when they come to Jesus for forgiveness. Because that is YOUR mentality. You guys are ELITE, you are the CHOSEN ONES, you are the ELECT. You think everyone thinks like YOU do. It is all about YOU. You are self-centered just like your Calvinist God.

Another senseless tirade. Cool off Winman you are going to blow a fuse!

Read the story of the publican. He simply cast himself on God's mercy. He was humble, and God forgave him. This is the non Cal and Arminian attitude, something YOU do not understand. How can you? You are the ELECT.

I believe you have it backward Winman. It is the Arminian who has to help God out. By the way Winman, have you ever seen a lost man running around with One of God's Elect stenciled on his forehead? Have you ever seen one of the hated Calvinists running around with One of God's Elect stenciled on his forehead? It is a fact though that all who are saved are God's elect.

Winman, I can tell you truthfully that I humbly cast myself on God's mercy when He saved me and I humbly ask for God's mercy daily. One of my most frequent prayers is that of King David, one of God's elect:

Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Did the publican come to God of his own free will? YES.

How do you know he came of his own freewill? Have you discussed this with him since Scripture does not say.

Did he exalt himself? NO.

As one who believes in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace, not Calvinism, I can say that these doctrines magnify the Grace of God, not the will of man!

You just don't get that do you? You think everyone thinks like YOU.

Winman, Is there anyone else on this Forum who continually rants and raves like you do?

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus is God, and Jesus died on the cross.

God cannot die Winman! If God died the universe would self destruct.

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Acts 17:28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being;

Colossians 1:16, 17 NASB
16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.
17. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Exactly, YOU actually think I was talking to YOU don't YOU? YOU prove my point.

It is Calvinism that claims God sends people to hell for his glory, when God says he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The scriptures say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but Calvinism teaches that God NEEDS evil so he can punish sinners to glorify himself. He COULD save them in your view, but he would rather glorify himself by torturing sinners forever in your view. Utterly disgraceful.

How can you reason with folks who believe such horrendous evil? You guys are insane.

I will simply ask you again: Is there another person on this Forum who continually rants and raves like you do? I never see anything approaching kindness, understanding, or the love of Jesus Christ in your posts. I have basically quit reading them because of that and rarely respond to you but I did want to show you those verses related to the Glory of God.

 

[OldRegular]

As for the bathtub itself, as we know it--with running hot and cold water, it was not invented until the 20th century.

Actually the Biltmore Mansion, finished in 1895, has hot and cold running water for baths with thermometers in the piping!

 

[OldRegular]

Yes but he predistined them to stink....but only those who are enlightened, take baths! :smilewinkgrin:

Now shall we have an argument over the type of soap used and who made that selection?

Lifeboy really stops BeeOoo!:thumbsup::thumbsup::1_grouphug:

 

[Winman]

Another senseless tirade. Cool off Winman you are going to blow a fuse!

Obviously you did not read the OP. Luke claims God is all about himself. The only reason God saves us is because we are made in HIS image. He is worried about HIS IMAGE, not your soul.

I believe you have it backward Winman. It is the Arminian who has to help God out. By the way Winman, have you ever seen a lost man running around with One of God's Elect stenciled on his forehead? Have you ever seen one of the hated Calvinists running around with One of God's Elect stenciled on his forehead? It is a fact though that all who are saved are God's elect.

That is ALL you guys talk about, being the ELECT. Talk to any Arminian or non Cal and they will say "I got SAVED when I was ten" or "God SAVED me when I was a teenager". You never hear non Cals talking about election, they talk of how Jesus SAVED them from their sins. This is an attitude of humility, you must admit you are a sinner worthy of hell before you will come to Jesus for forgiveness as the publican did in Luke 18.

Winman, I can tell you truthfully that I humbly cast myself on God's mercy when He saved me and I humbly ask for God's mercy daily. One of my most frequent prayers is that of King David, one of God's elect:

Oh NO! YOU SAVED YOURSELF!! You helped God out! You usurped God's sovereignty! What blasphemy! You are a heretic and a Pelagian!!

Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Oh no! David was an Arminian who prayed for God to forgive him! Will the blasphemy never end!!

How do you know he came of his own freewill? Have you discussed this with him since Scripture does not say.

Because the scripture says so;

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

Do the scriptures say God dragged the publican into the temple?

As one who believes in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace, not Calvinism, I can say that these doctrines magnify the Grace of God, not the will of man!


Winman, Is there anyone else on this Forum who continually rants and raves like you do?

You can't believe Calvinism and then deny you are a Calvinist. You hold to all 5 points of Calvinism don't you?

Do you believe in Total Depravity?

Do you believe in Unconditional Election?

Do you believe in Limited Atonement?

Do you believe in Irresistible Grace?

Do you believe in Perseverance of the Saints?

If so, YOU ARE A CALVINIST.

What did Shakespeare say? A rose by any other name...

 

[Winman]

God cannot die Winman! If God died the universe would self destruct.

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


I will simply ask you again: Is there another person on this Forum who continually rants and raves like you do? I never see anything approaching kindness, understanding, or the love of Jesus Christ in your posts. I have basically quit reading them because of that and rarely respond to you but I did want to show you those verses related to the Glory of God.

That's what you want isn't it? Acceptance. You want someone to tell you that Calvinism is true Christianity don't you? I won't tell that lie.

And you talk about the LOVE of Jesus? Only for the ELECT in your view. For most of humanity, God only pretends to love them. Oh sure, he makes the rain to fall on them, he provides food and clothing while they live in this world, but before they were ever born or had done anything wrong, God had determined they would be cast in the lake of fire and be tortured forever! All to his glory!!

Yes, I rant, and rightly so. If you cannot see why there is something seriously wrong with you.

 

[Revmitchell]

Obviously you did not read the OP. Luke claims God is all about himself. The only reason God saves us is because we are made in HIS image. He is worried about HIS IMAGE, not your soul.

The op is juvenile, you shouldn't expel any more energy debating it than you would getting into a debate with a three year old.

 

[OldRegular]

You can't believe Calvinism and then deny you are a Calvinist. You hold to all 5 points of Calvinism don't you?

I believe the Bible Winman!

Do you believe in Total Depravity?

Do you believe in Unconditional Election?

Do you believe in Limited Atonement?

Do you believe in Irresistible Grace?

Do you believe in Perseverance of the Saints?

If so, YOU ARE A CALVINIST.

What did Shakespeare say? A rose by any other name...

Do you see how spiteful your response is Winman. I feel sorry for you and those around you!

 

[Winman]

The op is juvenile, you shouldn't expel any more energy debating it than you would getting into a debate with a three year old.

It might be juvenile, but it is what MANY Calvinists believe. They believe God needs sin, because he needs to punish sinners to glorify himself. God is utterly selfish and self-centered in their view. That's OK, he is God and he can do whatever he wants. Whatever he does is good simply because he did it.

I just happened to run across this article today. I am not the only person who has difficulty with the Calvinist view of God.

The point is–God’s character. IF God elects people to salvation unconditionally and IF God IS love (1 John) why doesn’t he save everybody? IF I could be a universalist, I could be a Calvinist. I don’t care about free will for its own sake or for any humanist reasons. Hell is the sticky issue. The Calvinist God could save everyone because his election to salvation is unconditional and his grace is irresistible. Apparently, he purposefully chooses to “pass over” some (which is in effect the same as foreordaining them to hell). Why? For his glory? Some Calvinists say hell is necessary for the full manifestation of God’s attribute of justice. I ask what that says about the cross-was it not a sufficient manifestation of God’s justice?
The devil wants everyone to go to hell. The God of Calvinism wants many to go to hell. Is that enough of a difference of character? Not to me. The God of Jesus Christ is absolutely, unconditionally good. The God of Calvinism, from my perspective, is not absolutely, uncondtionally good and, in fact, has a dark side that includes willing that people perish eternally (contrary to 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2010/08/the-problem-with-calvinism-is/

Any person who can actually THINK has to be offended by Calvinism.

 

[Revmitchell]

It might be juvenile, but it is what MANY Calvinists believe.

I wouldn't pin that on all cals. There are a few who are always looking to put things in the worst possible light. There is a far less juvenile way to say what the op said.

 

[Winman]

I wouldn't pin that on all cals. There are a few who are always looking to put things in the worst possible light. There is a far less juvenile way to say what the op said.

Well, I know there are Calvinists who reject Limited Atonement, but that is illogical. Calvinism either stands or completely falls on all 5 points. Take out any point and it collapses like the house of cards it truly is.

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/03/there_are_no_fourpoint_calvini_1.php

I just finished reading The Doctrines of Grace by J M Boice and P Ryken and they did a fantastic job of making these same points, how you cannot be anything but a 5 pointer because a 3 or 4 pointer just has not thought about the implications of stopping there...it has to be all 5 or the whole thing falls apart. It's a great book, very readable and informative in both theological and historical understanding of Reformed Christianity.

And note that the Doctrines of Grace are nothing but another name for Calvinism.