per The RCC, WHAT aspect of salvation is lacking in cross of Christ?

[DaChaser1]

There is no such thing as a "sacramental grace." Try to find that one in the Bible.

Grace is simply the free unmerited favor of God. Once that definition is cleared up then one can see more clearly. The RCC has redefined grace.

EVERY NT verse referencing salvation tells us that it is the FREE GIFT of God towards us, and that we do NOT merit it by ANY works/ceremonies/rites etc but ONLY by appropiate the effectual grace of God to save us by palcing faith and trust in jesus, PERIOD!

paul stated believe in jesus and be saved, John, peter etc....

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Is not your RELATIONSHIP between you and your children established by "conception"? What made them your children versus someone else's children? Was it their actions or conception between you and your spouse?

You said birth. I clarified what I believe that the relationship is established at conception. You know the two become one flesh thing. Conception.

Do you really thing what they do after conception reverses conception?

Nope it affects our relationship. Note no matter what man chooses to obey God or not. He is an eternal creature.

Do you think what they do after birth undoes conception?

Nope and no matter what we do we live forever. In heaven or in hell.

We talk about our RELATIVES because we are RELATED by marriage, conception or adoption. That is the basis of our RELATIONSHIP.

The real question is how do you dichotomize relationship from fellowship.

When we talk about how we GET ALONG WITH EACH OTHER that is our fellowship.

Ah. I see that as relational

God's children become children by "new birth" and that is what establishes their spiritual relationship to God. Their practice determines their fellowship with God or how they are getting along with each other.

Their actions affect their relationship with God.

 

[DaChaser1]

You said birth. I clarified what I believe that the relationship is established at conception. You know the two become one flesh thing. Conception.

Nope it affects our relationship. Note no matter what man chooses to obey God or not. He is an eternal creature.

Nope and no matter what we do we live forever. In heaven or in hell.

The real question is how do you dichotomize relationship from fellowship.

Ah. I see that as relational

Their actions affect their relationship with God.

deeds done/not done after being saved by God affect us fellowship wise, but not relationship, see the parable on the prodigal son!

 

[The Biblicist]

You said birth. I clarified what I believe that the relationship is established at conception. You know the two become one flesh thing. Conception.

Nope it affects our relationship. Note no matter what man chooses to obey God or not. He is an eternal creature.

Nope and no matter what we do we live forever. In heaven or in hell.

The real question is how do you dichotomize relationship from fellowship.

Ah. I see that as relational

Their actions affect their relationship with God.

You asked me how I explained it! I have told you how. You reject that explanation, ok!

You theory makes the new birth or spiritual conception EQUAL to fellowship. The Bible clearly states that when we commit sin our fellowship is broken:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Light is where He dwells (v. 7). If we "walk" in the light we have "fellowship" ONE WITH ANOTHER. Sin does not occur by WALKING IN THE LIGHT but walking in darkness. Hence, according to your theory when we walk in the darkness or when we sin we are UNBORN because fellowship is only IN THE LIGHT. Hence, we are UNBORN every time we sin and stay UNBORN until we bring our sin INTO THE LIGHT and confess it and then WALK in the light.

 

[Matt Black]

No-one, it seems, has mentioned love which surely is a cornerstone of the Christian's walk with Christ. Now, if you love someone, you want to please them and do things for them, and if you hurt or offend them, you want to put it right. It seems to me that the sacramental economy of the 'higher', more liturgical churches, is at least partly about that. It's not for me about establishing the relationship with Christ but about repairing it when we damage it through sin.

(There are also of course those awkward passages in John's Gospel: "If you love Me, then keep my commandments"...(Jn 14:15)..."If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching"...(Jn 14:23a)..."If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love" (Jn15:10a) etc)

 

[DaChaser1]

No-one, it seems, has mentioned love which surely is a cornerstone of the Christian's walk with Christ. Now, if you love someone, you want to please them and do things for them, and if you hurt or offend them, you want to put it right. It seems to me that the sacramental economy of the 'higher', more liturgical churches, is at least partly about that. It's not for me about establishing the relationship with Christ but about repairing it when we damage it through sin.

(There are also of course those awkward passages in John's Gospel: "If you love Me, then keep my commandments"...(Jn 14:15)..."If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching"...(Jn 14:23a)..."If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love" (Jn15:10a) etc)

the ONLY biblical way to restore our fellowship with the Father is through confession to god, as per the Apostle John!

RCC sacraments are not needed, as one is justified by god due to the merits of Chrsit ALONE, and not through us co assisting Him in ANY fashion!

 

[Matt Black]

You've totally missed the point about having a loving relationship, then.

 

[DaChaser1]

You've totally missed the point about having a loving relationship, then.

yes, the Lord loved us by giving His only Son to die to atone for my sins in full...

NO need to add ANY additional sacraments/gracing, as jesus supplied ALL that I will ever need, by his death/resurrection , and HIS Holy Spirit ALONE is all that I need to have 'grace" to have power for this life!

 

[Matt Black]

What about your love for Him? Do you have any?

 

[DaChaser1]

What about your love for Him? Do you have any?

Yes!

This is WHy so concerned for the sake of the catholics, that they would renounce their false church and its teachings and come out of her and get saved in a "real" church!

 

[The Biblicist]

No-one, it seems, has mentioned love which surely is a cornerstone of the Christian's walk with Christ. Now, if you love someone, you want to please them and do things for them, and if you hurt or offend them, you want to put it right. It seems to me that the sacramental economy of the 'higher', more liturgical churches, is at least partly about that. It's not for me about establishing the relationship with Christ but about repairing it when we damage it through sin.

(There are also of course those awkward passages in John's Gospel: "If you love Me, then keep my commandments"...(Jn 14:15)..."If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching"...(Jn 14:23a)..."If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love" (Jn15:10a) etc)

Your very argument invalidates all sacramentalism completely. Sacramentalism by its very nature is necessary to maintain a salvic relationship through imparted grace. However, love is the correct movtive for keeping any and all commandments and therefore, if sacramentalism is necessary to maintain a loving salvic relationship then keeping all commandments is equally necessary for keeping loving slavic relationship.

The truth is that the new birth has established our relationship by what Christ did and not by what we do. He first loved us and it is his love that slavic relationship has been established. We love him consequentially because he first loved us and our love maintains our FELLOWSHIP. Commandment keeping is essential to maintain FELLOWSHIP which centers on Love. God dwells in the light and only as we walk in the light do we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and each other. However, sin is not committed by "walking in the light" but by walking in darkness.

You theory makes the new birth or spiritual conception EQUAL to fellowship. The Bible clearly states that when we commit sin our fellowship is broken:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Light is where He dwells (v. 7). If we "walk" in the light we have "fellowship" ONE WITH ANOTHER. Sin does not occur by WALKING IN THE LIGHT but walking in darkness. Hence, according to your theory when we walk in the darkness or when we sin we are UNBORN because fellowship is only IN THE LIGHT. Hence, we are UNBORN every time we sin and stay UNBORN until we bring our sin INTO THE LIGHT and confess it and then WALK in the light.

Therefore SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP and SPIRITUAL FELLOWSHIP are not one and the same. His love obtains and maintains our RELATIONSHIP but our love maintains our FELLOWSHIP with him and one with another.

 

[DaChaser1]

Your very argument invalidates all sacramentalism completely. Sacramentalism by its very nature is necessary to maintain a salvic relationship through imparted grace. However, love is the correct movtive for keeping any and all commandments and therefore, if sacramentalism is necessary to maintain a loving salvic relationship then keeping all commandments is equally necessary for keeping loving slavic relationship.

The truth is that the new birth has established our relationship by what Christ did and not by what we do. He first loved us and it is his love that slavic relationship has been established. We love him consequentially because he first loved us and our love maintains our FELLOWSHIP. Commandment keeping is essential to maintain FELLOWSHIP which centers on Love. God dwells in the light and only as we walk in the light do we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and each other. However, sin is not committed by "walking in the light" but by walking in darkness.

You theory makes the new birth or spiritual conception EQUAL to fellowship. The Bible clearly states that when we commit sin our fellowship is broken:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Light is where He dwells (v. 7). If we "walk" in the light we have "fellowship" ONE WITH ANOTHER. Sin does not occur by WALKING IN THE LIGHT but walking in darkness. Hence, according to your theory when we walk in the darkness or when we sin we are UNBORN because fellowship is only IN THE LIGHT. Hence, we are UNBORN every time we sin and stay UNBORN until we bring our sin INTO THE LIGHT and confess it and then WALK in the light.

Therefore SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP and SPIRITUAL FELLOWSHIP are not one and the same. His love obtains and maintains our RELATIONSHIP but our love maintains our FELLOWSHIP with him and one with another.

where does the sincere catholic find assurance of their salvation by the sacramental system of Grace and works that we do to co assist God?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

where does the sincere catholic find assurance of their salvation by the sacramental system of Grace and works that we do to co assist God?

the sincere catholic believes as Jesus Christ said. You must abide in him and he will abide in us. As long as we keep our faith and not apostate, he is our guarantee. The first installment of the promise is reciept of the Holy Spirit which is by Grace from the Father.

 

[DaChaser1]

the sincere catholic believes as Jesus Christ said. You must abide in him and he will abide in us. As long as we keep our faith and not apostate, he is our guarantee. The first installment of the promise is reciept of the Holy Spirit which is by Grace from the Father.

what IF one chose to NOT partake of the "sacraments /elements of Grace?"

Would they still be assurred of heaven?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

what IF one chose to NOT partake of the "sacraments /elements of Grace?"

Would they still be assurred of heaven?

Well if you refused to be baptized - no you are in rebellion against God. Jesus commands that his followers are baptized. Unless you can't be baptized like dieing before you had the Chance. You have a baptism of desire but not the opportunity.

In your termonology it would be like those people who say I worship God when I'm in nature I don't need to go to church. In your jargon you would say they were never saved. So in much the same way a person isn't committed to Jesus Christ if they don't get baptized.

However, not all sacraments need to be taken for eternal life for instance. I don't need to take Holy orders and as long as I don't apostate Heaven is assured.

The question is why would you for go grace that gives life to your faith?

 

[DaChaser1]

Well if you refused to be baptized - no you are in rebellion against God. Jesus commands that his followers are baptized. Unless you can't be baptized like dieing before you had the Chance. You have a baptism of desire but not the opportunity.

In your termonology it would be like those people who say I worship God when I'm in nature I don't need to go to church. In your jargon you would say they were never saved. So in much the same way a person isn't committed to Jesus Christ if they don't get baptized.

However, not all sacraments need to be taken for eternal life for instance. I don't need to take Holy orders and as long as I don't apostate Heaven is assured.

The question is why would you for go grace that gives life to your faith?

the ONLY Grace needed to have Eternal Life is found in the Cross of Christ, the faith in him and that work justifies me freely AND fully before God...

I NEVER have taken the mass/nor be infant baptised, nor received ANY RCC sacrament, but I am going sdtright to heaven at death or second coming!

Since the Lord has already justiied ne based upon jesus, WHAT does RCC sacramnets add to His already finished work on my behalf?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the ONLY Grace needed to have Eternal Life is found in the Cross of Christ, the faith in him and that work justifies me freely AND fully before God...

I NEVER have taken the mass/nor be infant baptised, nor received ANY RCC sacrament, but I am going sdtright to heaven at death or second coming!

Since the Lord has already justiied ne based upon jesus, WHAT does RCC sacramnets add to His already finished work on my behalf?

In obedience to God haven't you been immersed in water in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit? That is baptism and grace is afforded to you because you believed and were obedient. By the way you need to read Romans 2 AGain

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.