cwclugston
New Member
Apology accepted. I took it as a personal attack.
Bill C.
Bill C.
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Perhaps one of you could explain........
- Thread starter cwclugston
- Start date
UnashamedYouth
New Member
well what if WE take it as a personal attack because they way you came off with that is you are speaking FOR GOD. What you do or don't condone is all well and good for yourself and your family, but in the long run we're having to live the life God wants, not the elders of a Church. That doesn't mean I can disrespect you and you ARE entitled to your opinion. But I find it as a personal attack towards us when you, who don't really know us, feel that you know better than we do on teh matter.
I wouldn't let my teen go out looking like a druggy or a hooker... but a lot of the teens who DO that sort of stuff come from a harder life, and MOST don't come from Christian homes. So before you go judging... GET TO KNOW THE PERSON... become a "mentor" of sorts. Not a Star Wars "Jedi Master"... but someone that a teen will look up to and understand where you're coming from. If you don't know the teen they're just going to hate you for your comments... for hte most part.
I am a teen, and as such my opinions don't count to a lot of adults, but I don't care I'm just as opinionated as any adult on this board, but I don't come off as God's personal messanger. And that's how I come out of this conversation. I'm not attacking you anymore than you're attacking me.
I wouldn't let my teen go out looking like a druggy or a hooker... but a lot of the teens who DO that sort of stuff come from a harder life, and MOST don't come from Christian homes. So before you go judging... GET TO KNOW THE PERSON... become a "mentor" of sorts. Not a Star Wars "Jedi Master"... but someone that a teen will look up to and understand where you're coming from. If you don't know the teen they're just going to hate you for your comments... for hte most part.
I am a teen, and as such my opinions don't count to a lot of adults, but I don't care I'm just as opinionated as any adult on this board, but I don't come off as God's personal messanger. And that's how I come out of this conversation. I'm not attacking you anymore than you're attacking me.
cwclugston
New Member
Your opinions matter to me. I started this thread because I sought to understand; not to judge. I wanted all of you to know where I was coming from, too. Understanding is a two-way street. Please accept my humble apology if I have come across as judgmental.
BTW, I've already moved to implement your suggestion that I get to know some of the youth. Thank you.
Bill C.
I don't mean to be rude... but to be honest, you have come off as nothing but judgemental, not trying to understand, and easily angered. I do accept your apology... but please, keep this in mind in the future when you get irritated about things like this. When your response is such as it has been, do not be surprised if teenagers, especially non-christians, get all up in arms.
JonathanDT
New Member
Actually, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind other Christians dressing like that. It's just because we're his own family, and especially as a pastor you're judged by your family.
You don't have to stay silent, however realize that we also don't have to agree. We're also born again, led by the spirit. We have our own convictions. We also no longer have this "awe" of adults where we believe everything they say is straight from the mouth of God. So don't take it personally if we disagree with you, it's just that we're at an age to make our own decisions, and we now expect adults to respect those decisions even if they don't agree.
God bless,
`JD
cwclugston
New Member
A reasonable expectation; as long as the decisions that are made are reasonable decisions. However, a lot of kids do things just to see how much they can shock adults or see just how much they can get away with before someone has had enough to the point where they are about to scream. (I should know; I used to do this.) Also, we adults take uncompromising positions because we are trying to impress a point on you. It may not be right or even fair, but whether we like it or not, we are judged by how we look. That is just the way life is. Get used to it.
I affiliated with a SB church because SB's have high standards of conduct and I want to be associated with like-minded people. I do not believe that visitors or seekers should ever be turned away, no matter what their attire. However, some of the teens I've seen come to church in punk attire are children of our members and it really offends me when I see some of these kids and there comes a point where you just can't look the other way anymore.
I hereby make an appeal for understanding.
Bill C.
Maybe this will help you understand.
I am not a kid. I'm 20 years old and my parents have finished their parenting with me. I'm now my own responsibility. I am way past the "let's do something shocking" phase. They wouldn't be shocked anyway, since in their mind I am an adult and I make my own decisions. I'm not getting away with anything either, because again, I am an adult now, and it's my responsibility to discipline myself, not theirs.
So I'm planning on getting my nose pierced. Nothing gaudy, just a very small diamond stud. As I've said, it's not to shock people, since I don't know anyone that would be shocked by that, or to toe the line, because there really isn't one. It's the same reason I'd wear a necklace or a pair of earrings.... I just think it looks pretty. That's all.
stubbornkelly
New Member
Non-kid here, too (I'm coming up on 26 
). But these threads have gotten me thinking about clothing styles and such. It seems we're having the same issues about clothes are we do about music - when a lot of it doesn't have anything to do with ungodliness, just preferences.
From many posts - not just in this thread, mind - I get the distinct impression that Christians are supposed to dress like yuppies. Really. I get a "lovely" 80s sense when I hear about jumpers, especially. I mean no offense by that - it's just the impression I get. But really, when we say "clean cut," I don't get the impression we mean just nicely dressed and well put together, no rips or anything, and with a consistent style. Rather, I get images of a guy from the 50s with a letterman's sweater, or the aforementioned 80s yuppie. Well, those are distinct styles, and certainly not unworldly.
Personally, I wear a lot of black. I wear lug soled shoes with silver buckles. I wear long lace skirts and sometimes even fishnet stockings with my Doc Martens. I wear silver jewelry. And I love textured fabric - lace, as mentioned, as well as velvet, silk, leather and suede. I'm considering getting some bright burgundy highlights in my currently dark brown hair. All very tasteful, all very well put together.
Why? That's my style. Just as "80s yuppie" is another person's style, and just as "Wall Street banker" is someone else's. I don't have any inclination to wear a jumper with a nice turtleneck - I think it's ugly. Sorry, but I do. I'm not too keen on wearing a business suit, either, though I will when I have to. And no, I certainly don't bring out the floral print dress with the Peter Pan collar for Sunday meeting.
Am I concerned with expressing my personality through my clothing? Well, maybe not "concerned," but sure, that's part of what clothing does. That's what we're saying in these kinds of threads, right, that clothing is an expression of our personalities? But where I think the problem lies is in the idea that only one or two "personalities" are correct. I'm not a bland person, and I have no desire to express blandness through my clothing choices. I don't have any desire to play Sandra Dee or Doris Day - that's just not representative of my personality. I don't think that's a flaw.
Am I flashy? No. Am I modest? Yes. Am I rebelling against something? Hardly. Am I expressing myself? Of course. So is everyone wearing Duck Head trousers and Izod shirts (and a jumper and turtleneck).
[ March 24, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: stubbornkelly ]
). But these threads have gotten me thinking about clothing styles and such. It seems we're having the same issues about clothes are we do about music - when a lot of it doesn't have anything to do with ungodliness, just preferences.From many posts - not just in this thread, mind - I get the distinct impression that Christians are supposed to dress like yuppies. Really. I get a "lovely" 80s sense when I hear about jumpers, especially. I mean no offense by that - it's just the impression I get. But really, when we say "clean cut," I don't get the impression we mean just nicely dressed and well put together, no rips or anything, and with a consistent style. Rather, I get images of a guy from the 50s with a letterman's sweater, or the aforementioned 80s yuppie. Well, those are distinct styles, and certainly not unworldly.
Personally, I wear a lot of black. I wear lug soled shoes with silver buckles. I wear long lace skirts and sometimes even fishnet stockings with my Doc Martens. I wear silver jewelry. And I love textured fabric - lace, as mentioned, as well as velvet, silk, leather and suede. I'm considering getting some bright burgundy highlights in my currently dark brown hair. All very tasteful, all very well put together.
Why? That's my style. Just as "80s yuppie" is another person's style, and just as "Wall Street banker" is someone else's. I don't have any inclination to wear a jumper with a nice turtleneck - I think it's ugly. Sorry, but I do. I'm not too keen on wearing a business suit, either, though I will when I have to. And no, I certainly don't bring out the floral print dress with the Peter Pan collar for Sunday meeting.
Am I concerned with expressing my personality through my clothing? Well, maybe not "concerned," but sure, that's part of what clothing does. That's what we're saying in these kinds of threads, right, that clothing is an expression of our personalities? But where I think the problem lies is in the idea that only one or two "personalities" are correct. I'm not a bland person, and I have no desire to express blandness through my clothing choices. I don't have any desire to play Sandra Dee or Doris Day - that's just not representative of my personality. I don't think that's a flaw.
Am I flashy? No. Am I modest? Yes. Am I rebelling against something? Hardly. Am I expressing myself? Of course. So is everyone wearing Duck Head trousers and Izod shirts (and a jumper and turtleneck).
[ March 24, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: stubbornkelly ]
stubbornkelly
New Member
Actually, that's untrue. Culture isn't as broad as "American culture." The culture I live in is likely very different that the culture others on this board live in. But that's because culture is not defined by geography. Culture is defined by our behaviors, beliefs, activities and values - it is most accurately described as "the personality of an organization."
The culture my mother experiences is vastly different than the one her mother experienced at her age, and both are far different than the one I experience. But the culture my best friend from high school experiences is vastly different than the one I experience, and we live in the same year, and only 90 miles away from each other.
In this country, there are myriad cultures. You may represent the dominant culture, Bill, but certainly not all cultures.
At my college, spiky pink, blue or purple hair, piercings and tattoos were common, and perfectly acceptable. Yes, to some outsiders, GuilCo kids were freaky, but within our culture (!), it was normal. No one was looked down upon for having purple hair, and plenty of boys wore earrings (some even wore one on each lobe), and some even wore eyeliner. My point is, the culture accepted that style of dress, and it reflected at least part of my school's personality - mostly, the fact that it was even permitted and went on without even a blink of an eye from a professor or administrator.
Besides, the way it is isn't necessariy the way it should be . . .
One day, our nineteen year old son, came in and said "Dad, I guess I had better tell you this"
Pause...long silence...while Mom and Dad thought of everything that he could possibly say to us.
Then he said, "I'm going to color my hair green"
Well, we were so relieved that it wasn't something major.. He colored his hair green, but then his band director didn't like it. So now, he has his great looking black hair again.
THankfully, no earrings or tatoos.
While I do not approve of some of the dress of our youth in our church, they are learning by example and I have seen a great change in the last few years.
We had one boy who wore the all black garb, long coat and everything. He became a Christian and continued to wear this garb, but gradually he was told in kindness that he doesn't need to wear all that black stuff anymore. Actually, I don't think he could afford to get new clothes at first.
I know CWClugston, I agree, I have really wondered at time because some of our youth that dress strangely have parents right there in church, but our pastor wants them in church.
Our pastor does not lower his standards, but he wants them in church. Many of our youth come to church without parents and we have parents who have been saved because their children came to our church first.
I am not disagreeing with you, but these kids will grow up and growing up in the Lord with your guidance will be more important than their dress at this time.
Pause...long silence...while Mom and Dad thought of everything that he could possibly say to us.
Then he said, "I'm going to color my hair green"
Well, we were so relieved that it wasn't something major.. He colored his hair green, but then his band director didn't like it. So now, he has his great looking black hair again.
THankfully, no earrings or tatoos.
While I do not approve of some of the dress of our youth in our church, they are learning by example and I have seen a great change in the last few years.
We had one boy who wore the all black garb, long coat and everything. He became a Christian and continued to wear this garb, but gradually he was told in kindness that he doesn't need to wear all that black stuff anymore. Actually, I don't think he could afford to get new clothes at first.
I know CWClugston, I agree, I have really wondered at time because some of our youth that dress strangely have parents right there in church, but our pastor wants them in church.
Our pastor does not lower his standards, but he wants them in church. Many of our youth come to church without parents and we have parents who have been saved because their children came to our church first.
I am not disagreeing with you, but these kids will grow up and growing up in the Lord with your guidance will be more important than their dress at this time.
cwclugston
New Member
Food for thought, Thankful. I'll take it under advisement.
BTW, please call me "Bill."
Bill C.
BTW, please call me "Bill."
Bill C.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. Proverbs 30:12
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate… 2 Corinthians 6:17
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Pet 2:9
Ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy… Leviticus 11:44
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1 Timothy 2:9-10
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:28
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Romans 14:13
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Romans 14:21
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is an interesting passage of scripture in the Old Testament that deals with male modesty, the modesty of the priests. Altars were never to be built so high that they needed steps. Exodus 20:25-26 says, “And If thou wilt make me an altar of stone... Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy naked-ness be not discovered thereon.” The passage is clear. Altars were never to be built that required steps because the Lord did not want people to see up the priestly garment as he climbed the steps. There were additional instructions describing the underwear God commanded the priests to wear. Exodus 28:42 says, “And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their naked-ness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach.” We understand two things from this passage; FIRST, they were to wear under-wear for the purpose of covering their nakedness. SECOND, the under-wear they wore was to cover from the waist to the thigh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have pierced ears. One hole in each ear. I'm 52 and when I was a child the ladies wore the large clip on earrings. I prefered the simple look of my Grandmother Weldy's little pierced earrings and mine were pierced as a child. I also wear shorts but those bermuda type things that cover as much as a skirt. We allow the children to wear decent shorts and tops to Bible School but a child of any age, showing too much, would be given something else to wear.
We have a number of young women who come on Sunday morning with very short skirts and shirts that show their tummies. One of my sons is a 26 year old single man and he has made remarks about how uncomfortable this makes him feel.
Decent clothes should be worn by Christian's everywhere they go! Our bodies are the temple of the living God! We should dress accordingly!
Purple spiked hair? Dog chains? Spiked Collars. I vote NO!
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate… 2 Corinthians 6:17
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Pet 2:9
Ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy… Leviticus 11:44
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1 Timothy 2:9-10
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:28
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Romans 14:13
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Romans 14:21
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is an interesting passage of scripture in the Old Testament that deals with male modesty, the modesty of the priests. Altars were never to be built so high that they needed steps. Exodus 20:25-26 says, “And If thou wilt make me an altar of stone... Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy naked-ness be not discovered thereon.” The passage is clear. Altars were never to be built that required steps because the Lord did not want people to see up the priestly garment as he climbed the steps. There were additional instructions describing the underwear God commanded the priests to wear. Exodus 28:42 says, “And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their naked-ness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach.” We understand two things from this passage; FIRST, they were to wear under-wear for the purpose of covering their nakedness. SECOND, the under-wear they wore was to cover from the waist to the thigh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have pierced ears. One hole in each ear. I'm 52 and when I was a child the ladies wore the large clip on earrings. I prefered the simple look of my Grandmother Weldy's little pierced earrings and mine were pierced as a child. I also wear shorts but those bermuda type things that cover as much as a skirt. We allow the children to wear decent shorts and tops to Bible School but a child of any age, showing too much, would be given something else to wear.
We have a number of young women who come on Sunday morning with very short skirts and shirts that show their tummies. One of my sons is a 26 year old single man and he has made remarks about how uncomfortable this makes him feel.
Decent clothes should be worn by Christian's everywhere they go! Our bodies are the temple of the living God! We should dress accordingly!
Purple spiked hair? Dog chains? Spiked Collars. I vote NO!
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Blush said:
Also, I've seen magnetized nose jewels. I would recommend you consider that for a while. Can you imagine being a 52 year old grandmother with nipple rings or even just a gaping hole in your nose? Things sag as you age, Blush.
One of my best friends at church is a young mother in her late 20's. She has a large (tasteful, not vulgar) tattoo on her ankle. She uses it as a testimony when she tells the youth of the years she spent on drugs and promiscuity. She's also very ashamed of this 'worldly brand'.
I assume you have your own home, pay your own expenses, have your own insurance and need nothing from your parents? Otherwise....
Also, I've seen magnetized nose jewels. I would recommend you consider that for a while. Can you imagine being a 52 year old grandmother with nipple rings or even just a gaping hole in your nose? Things sag as you age, Blush.
One of my best friends at church is a young mother in her late 20's. She has a large (tasteful, not vulgar) tattoo on her ankle. She uses it as a testimony when she tells the youth of the years she spent on drugs and promiscuity. She's also very ashamed of this 'worldly brand'.
I'm not planning to stretch this nose piercing or anything. If you get tired of piercings and take the ring out, eventually it will close up. That's why I have no qualms about piercings but I do about tattoos.
You are right though, I am not completely independant of my parents. As it is, I live in residence at university. My parents pay half my fees and I take care of the rest. I live with them during the summer. But as far as they are concerned, they've taught me everything I need to be taught. Their "training" phase of parenting is done... it's now the "friendship" phase. They do not have rules for me, except what I do in their house. For example, if I decided to start smoking, I doubt they'd be happy, but I know they'd see me as perfectly free to make that decision on my own. They wouldn't let me smoke in their house though.
You are right though, I am not completely independant of my parents. As it is, I live in residence at university. My parents pay half my fees and I take care of the rest. I live with them during the summer. But as far as they are concerned, they've taught me everything I need to be taught. Their "training" phase of parenting is done... it's now the "friendship" phase. They do not have rules for me, except what I do in their house. For example, if I decided to start smoking, I doubt they'd be happy, but I know they'd see me as perfectly free to make that decision on my own. They wouldn't let me smoke in their house though.
stubbornkelly
New Member
It's funny, blush, but my parents are the same way. I think it began when I was young. I had boundaries, certainly, but they were fairly wide boundaries. My parents had rules, but they were simple rules, and they didn't micromanage. There were sometimes things I did that they didn't necessarily like, but my doing them wasn't an affront to any of our house rules.
The same is true now. My parents do help me out with some little luxuries like my cell phone and car (I live in the city and could do without it, really) for which I am so thankful, but I do live my own life. There's only so much control they have over me now. And yes, there are still things I do that they don't like, but we're all adults and handle differences of opinion in an adult manner.
At this point, they consider me "trained up," and don't have any rules I'm to follow. Granted, we don't ever share a home, except on holidays, so them giving their 25 year old rules from 100 miles away would be kinda silly.
But even at their house, the only rule is "call if you're going to be out past midnight." Basically, common courtesies are expected and given. They do the same for me, when appropriate. I wouldn't smoke in their house to begin with, but I guess that might be a rule too. But it's a non issue, so it hasn't been made a rule.
Okay, so that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Sorry for the tangent.
The same is true now. My parents do help me out with some little luxuries like my cell phone and car (I live in the city and could do without it, really) for which I am so thankful, but I do live my own life. There's only so much control they have over me now. And yes, there are still things I do that they don't like, but we're all adults and handle differences of opinion in an adult manner.
At this point, they consider me "trained up," and don't have any rules I'm to follow. Granted, we don't ever share a home, except on holidays, so them giving their 25 year old rules from 100 miles away would be kinda silly.
Okay, so that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Sorry for the tangent.
stubbornkelly
New Member
Oh, Abiyah! That's fabulous!
Oh! I know what it was I wanted to say (after all that!) -- blush, you actually might want to try the magnetic thing out for a bit, just to get you used to it. I know you can take it out, but why go through the pain of it if you won't like it? Couldn't hurt, at least to get an idea of how big a stud you want.
I remember when a friend was getting her tattoo (a modern style dragon on her lower back), she had the guy who designed it draw it on her skin with a non-toxic marker, so she could see it for a few weeks before she actually got inked. It was actually a good idea, because the original drawing was so big, she asked him to do it again, at 4/5 scale.