Perishing without having ever heard the gospel they end up in....

[Agent47]

Oh....and I don't know about the "unfollow" thing. I've noticed that sometimes I get notifications and sometimes I don't about threads I am following. But, as you posted it here, I'm sure the administrators are "notified".

The term here is unwatch at the top of the thread. Maybe my understanding of unwatching is different. Elsewhere any thread I unfollow or unwatch means I don't get notifications both on my profile and email whether by way of new posts or mentions, or both.

Thank you for taking note

 

[JonC]

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads...pel-they-end-up-in.103314/page-8#post-2284357


I specifically highlighted some part in red showing what I agreed with. 'Byproducts of a world containing freedom'.

What you believe, that things such as the Fall are "byproducts that God, as well as each of us, wishes had not occurred" is not Arminianian belief. Arminianism teaches that God is truly omniscient and all things that occur are "preordained" to occur by God (they do not happen outside of God's plan).

Take, for example, the Fall. Calvinism says that God "decreed" that the fall should occur. Arminianism teaches that God, knowing that the Fall would occur, ordained that it would occur. Both view the Fall within the overall content of God's eternal plan (they disagree on its ultimate source, but it's immediate source is God as Creator). You viewed the "ordain" vs. "decree" as a "distinction without a difference". Your view is not Arminian here, brother. It is open theistic on this topic (AGAIN, not that you are an Open Theistic, but that your position here falls into that category of thought).

 

[JonC]

The term here is unwatch at the top of the thread. Maybe my understanding of unwatching is different. Elsewhere any thread I unfollow or unwatch means I don't get notifications both on my profile and email whether by way of new posts or mentions, or both.

Thank you for taking note

You are welcome.

I've missed conversations I tried to follow (sometimes this has been a blessing to me, sometimes to others ). I do not know how that function works (except it is not consistent). Tapatalk seems to be even more difficult, if you use that app.

 

[Agent47]

What you believe, that things such as the Fall are "byproducts that God, as well as each of us, wishes had not occurred" is not Arminianian belief. .

It matters not what the belief is not, but whether believing so is sufficient to label me open theist.

Look again at what I highlighted, and QUOTE it in full. If you struggle with comprehension I can always help

 

[JonC]

David Basinger echoed it by saying that we "need not maintain that God’s creative goals require that many people in the Third World be allowed to starve or that many children be allowed to suffer abuse. We are free to maintain, rather, that these evils, and also their patterns of distribution, are byproducts of a world containing freedom – byproducts that God, as well as each of us, wishes had not occurred.”

True. I hold to this. But I can't absolve God if He infallibly decreed the Fall. Adam was not free because God's decrees are irresistible. At the very appointed time he was to Fall, he had to fall.

That's why Arminianism account makes sense; God permitted Adam to Fall.
.

If you are saying, now, that you agree God ordained the Fall and it occurred as God has planned it would occur (Arminianism) then our disagreement is not as great as you have argued. But throughout you have argued against that view (when I presented you fought tooth and nail that it was wrong). Make up your mind, brother. Get off the fence.

 

[Agent47]

If you are saying, now, that you agree God ordained the Fall and it occurred as God has planned it would occur (Arminianism) then our disagreement is not as great as you have argued. But throughout you have argued against that view (when I presented you fought tooth and nail that it was wrong). Make up your mind, brother. Get off the fence.

God NEVER ordained nor PLANNED the Fall. God planned FOR the Fall.

I even gave illustration of firefighters vs arsonists. The latter plan fires, the former plan for (and against??) fires.

The Lamb was not slain before the foundation because God planned the Fall, but rather because God knowing man would Fall planned to mitigate it.

You have this fantasy of boxing me into Arminianism (which you misrepresent) but I'm no Arminian though so far, I'm yet to see anything unscriptural or illogical or plain silly in it unlike Calvinism

 

[JonC]

It matters not what the belief is not, but whether believing so is sufficient to label me open theist.

Again, you are misunderstanding my comment. Arminianism teaches that God preordined all that has occured. Calvinism teaches that God has predestined all that has occured. You call this a "distinction without a difference". I recommended a few books by open theists because this is where a portion of your view leaned. But insofar as Arminianism, my favorite is "Grace Faith & Free Will" by Robert Pricilli. I thought his arguments were well made (and logical), even though I ultimately disagree:
https://books.google.com/books?id=t...RAhXHJiYKHRWnBb4Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Agent47]

Again, you are misunderstanding my comment. Arminianism teaches that God preordined all that has occured. Calvinism teaches that God has predestined all that has occured. You call this a "distinction without a difference". I recommended a few books by open theists because this is where a portion of your view leaned. But insofar as Arminianism, my favorite is "Grace Faith & Free Will" by Robert Pricilli. I thought his arguments were well made (and logical), even though I ultimately disagree:
https://books.google.com/books?id=t...RAhXHJiYKHRWnBb4Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

You need to learn Arminianism before digression.

Arminianism holds onto the concept of PERMISSION. I've read of God 'decreeing to permit'

There is no distinction in the EFFECT but there is major distinction in perception of God's character.

God permitting/not stopping Adam from Falling is different fromGod infallibly decreeing Adam to Fall.

In fact, this distinction which you now pretend to be insignificant was so clear to you that you insisted God permitted but not decreed disobedience.

God is simply the Author of everything he infallibly decrees. Man is also helpless in the face of infallible decrees hence not culpable. God is further confused in punishing man for obeying his decree to disobey him.

 

[JonC]

You need to learn Arminianism before digression.

No, that was my position for decades. You need to read the Articles before assuming.

 

[Agent47]

No, that was my position for decades. You need to read the Articles before assuming.

Ever learning but...

Can we consult Arminius?

 

[JonC]

Ever learning but...

Can we consult Arminius?

Arminius died a Calvinist and I do not believe in infant baptism. (You'd run into the same thing you tried to do by consulting John Calvin to define "Calvinism") .

Arminianism is not exactly defined by James Arminius (but he was just as much a scholar as was Calvin...I do not understand why he is so often ignored). At his death, there were people (even Calvinists) who believed that Arminius' teachings did not substantiate enough of a difference to constitute a departure from Calvinism. Just like our use of Calvinism goes back to the Canons of Dort, Arminianism goes back to the Five Articles of the Remonstrance. Ultimately it branched out into various forms.

If you are Arminian then we disagree on several issues, not only by what I affirm of Calvinism but also by what I reject (your belief is of Calvinistic trajectory, so we would also disagree when it comes to theories of the atonement).

 

[JonC]

Ever learning but...

Can we consult Arminius?

If you would like, start another thread. As you noted, this is one is about to close and I don't think it will be here long enough to discuss the topic. I suspect it has about an hour left.

I keep thinking of Monty Python and the Holy Grail...shall we consult the book of armaments?

 

[Agent47]

If you would like, start another thread. As you noted, this is one is about to close and I don't think it will be here long enough to discuss the topic. I suspect it has about an hour left.

I keep thinking of Monty Python and the Holy Grail...shall we consult the book of armaments?

Will do it God willing.

Actually, it seems your contention is permission and decrees are virtually indistinguishable.

I had started another thread on these terms and among my hidden will was distinguishing these. We can interact on that thread. I'm sure it is not off-topic.

 

[Agent47]

Arminius died a Calvinist

Strange things. Edwards leaned to Arminianism to escape embarrassing conclusions of Calvinism

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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