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Perserverance

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Amy.G

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The church of Laodicea was an apostate church. They were indifferent (neither hot nor cold) which is a condition of many churches today. Even though the Lord said He would spew them out of His mouth, apparently there were some in the church that were still able to be saved. That is why Jesus says to them "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is such a true picture of the church today. Even among the most apostate churches, there will still be a few individuals that will be saved, but that church as a whole will have the Spirit of God (their candlestick) removed from them .
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
The church of Laodicea was an apostate church. They were indifferent (neither hot nor cold) which is a condition of many churches today. Even though the Lord said He would spew them out of His mouth, apparently there were some in the church that were still able to be saved. That is why Jesus says to them "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is such a true picture of the church today. Even among the most apostate churches, there will still be a few individuals that will be saved, but that church as a whole will have the Spirit of God (their candlestick) removed from them .

So true Amy, I see absolutely no reason why 3:20 should not be applied to both the Laodicean Church and to humanity in general. Multitudes of scripture are agreed and interpreted as duble entendres, I personally see this call to both those within THIS church and to everyone henceforth.
 

freeatlast

New Member
The church of Laodicea was an apostate church. They were indifferent (neither hot nor cold) which is a condition of many churches today. Even though the Lord said He would spew them out of His mouth, apparently there were some in the church that were still able to be saved. That is why Jesus says to them "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is such a true picture of the church today. Even among the most apostate churches, there will still be a few individuals that will be saved, but that church as a whole will have the Spirit of God (their candlestick) removed from them .

Very good! :thumbsup:
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Who’s wretched and pitiful? It’s the one outside the kingdom. Who’s poor? It is the one who has not received the riches of God’s grace. Who’s blind? It is the one who does not see what Jesus has already done for him. Who’s naked? It is the one who clothes himself with filthy acts of self-righteousness in a doomed attempt to make himself acceptable to a holy and perfection-demanding God.

Religion is bad for you

Nothing will keep you out of the kingdom of heaven like man-made religion. Nothing will keep you from the grace of God like self-righteousness. Sin will kill you but religion will inoculate you against the only cure. It will give you a false sense that all is well, that you are rich and do not need a thing. And that’s why Jesus hates it.

http://escapetoreality.org/2010/05/...ea-part-3-who’s-wretched-and-poor-rev-314-21/
 

freeatlast

New Member
Who’s wretched and pitiful? It’s the one outside the kingdom. Who’s poor? It is the one who has not received the riches of God’s grace. Who’s blind? It is the one who does not see what Jesus has already done for him. Who’s naked? It is the one who clothes himself with filthy acts of self-righteousness in a doomed attempt to make himself acceptable to a holy and perfection-demanding God.

Religion is bad for you

Nothing will keep you out of the kingdom of heaven like man-made religion. Nothing will keep you from the grace of God like self-righteousness. Sin will kill you but religion will inoculate you against the only cure. It will give you a false sense that all is well, that you are rich and do not need a thing. And that’s why Jesus hates it.

http://escapetoreality.org/2010/05/...ea-part-3-who’s-wretched-and-poor-rev-314-21/

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Amy.G

New Member
.....what's the difference, they all look alike anyway..... it's BIG MAN, little God.... man centered theology.

Really? I don't think I'm a BIG MAN or BIG WOMAN for that matter. My theology is totally God centered, but it's statements like this that turn the debate ugly.

I'm not going to play the "my god's bigger than your god" game.

This is why Cals on this board get labeled arrogant. Can you not just present your argument and leave out the insults?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
You guys must think people are stupid.



Of course you believe God only intends to save a limited number of people, that is Limited Atonement.

You believe it as much as we do. You believe that God only intends to save those who believe. God has EVERY intention in your system of eternally burning the souls of billions who choose not to believe. Your system has God wanting man to choose him so much that he is willing to let men tumble in the lake of fire forever for NOT choosing him. Your system has God planning in eternity past to eternally torment the souls of billions and billions of unbelievers.

Your system does not make God one ounce nicer than ours. Your system does not put one more soul in heaven than ours.

Your system has God intending to damn billions and billions of people.


What I have said is you have no way to know you are elect.


Yes we do. The same way YOU know. We have been born again. We love the brethren and keep God's commandments. I John applies to us too.
 

jbh28

Active Member
Sure you do. I could pull up and post many articles by Calvinists that say there are different kinds of faith, but only true saving faith will save a man.

Here is a quote from John MacArhur



See what MacArthur says? If you have not been regenerated you cannot have true faith, saving faith.
And would you disagree? Would you say one would have faith but still not be regenerate?

But this leaves you with a serious problem, how do you know you have been regenerated? Did Jesus come down and speak to you like he did to Paul?

This also implies the unregenerate can have a false, non-saving faith. In fact, I have read several Calvinist authors that have said this directly.

So, how do you know your faith is true and saving? It is very possible that you could be unregenerate. If so, in your depraved state you could easily deceive yourself in believeing you have true saving faith when you do not. [/quote]
Here's a quote from James
Jas 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​


And that is why I asked about perseverance in the OP. It seems to me that the only way a Calvinist can have assurance that they are elect is by persevering. But that is not much help because Calvinists freely admit that persevering does not prove a person is elect. There are lots of folks that go to church and read their Bible that are lost as a goose.

But this presents another problem as well. A Calvinist cannot be sure he will persevere unless he knows for a fact he is elect. But he cannot know that.

So, you see, it is a vicious circle of doubt. You cannot know you will persevere if you cannot know you are elect, and you cannot know you are elect unless you persevere.
You are the only one running in a circle. I'm know I'm elect because I'm saved.
 
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jbh28

Active Member
I guess it's easier to put Winman on your ignore list since you cannot refute his cutting apart the Calvinist theology so many here seem to worship.

oh come on Robert. Winman cannot even represent what he is arguing against. This entire thread is about telling him what we believe, but he seems to know what we believe and not us.
 

jbh28

Active Member
What is there to persevere? Jesus said he that believes on him is passed from death to life and shall not come into condemnation.
AND EVERY CALVINIST BELIEVES THAT WE WILL ALL PERSEVER BECAUSE OF GOD!!!!! Stop running in circles. You go from "how do you know you are elect" to "will you persevere" to "how do you know you are elect" to..... you get it...well probably not
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Bible says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe.
AGREED!!!!!!
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This seal is permanent. What was the seal given Abraham when he believed and God imputed righteousness to him? Circumcision.
We will always be saved. Salvation is eternal. Agreed.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Can circumcision be undone?

So, I am not persevering, I am not enduring, I am resting safe.

So, as you can see, I am not Arminian as some of you falsely charge.[/QUOTE]

. once saved always saved arminian, not a true arminian.
 

jbh28

Active Member
.....what's the difference, they all look alike anyway..... it's BIG MAN, little God.... man centered theology.

Really? I don't think I'm a BIG MAN or BIG WOMAN for that matter. My theology is totally God centered, but it's statements like this that turn the debate ugly.

I'm not going to play the "my god's bigger than your god" game.

This is why Cals on this board get labeled arrogant. Can you not just present your argument and leave out the insults?

I'm going to give Amy a :thumbsup: here. I would add that this goes both ways. I think we should all leave out the emotional type arguments. The problem with this thread is that Winman refuses to say what we say we believe. It would be nice if we could just get to Scripture. We of course all have different interpretations of Scripture. But the waisting of time refuting straw men is unprofitable.

also trying to link Calvinists with cult groups is less than honest. I'm sure the Arminians, semi-pelegian, or those that disagree with Calvinism are good Christian people.

I think it would be good if we ALL would start treating each other like Christians and not like the other side is a cult or something.
 
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Robert Snow

New Member
You don't have to be Calvinist to see that by reading the Scripture in its context, it doesn't pertain to salvation. It pertains to willful error of a church.
It's you guys lifting a verse out of its context and applying it to fit your beliefs while accusing others of doing what you do.

No, it is Christ speaking to individual members of the churches.
 

Winman

Active Member
AND EVERY CALVINIST BELIEVES THAT WE WILL ALL PERSEVER BECAUSE OF GOD!!!!! Stop running in circles. You go from "how do you know you are elect" to "will you persevere" to "how do you know you are elect" to..... you get it...well probably not
AGREED!!!!!!
We will always be saved. Salvation is eternal. Agreed.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Can circumcision be undone?

So, I am not persevering, I am not enduring, I am resting safe.

So, as you can see, I am not Arminian as some of you falsely charge.

. once saved always saved arminian, not a true arminian.[/QUOTE]
 

Luke2427

Active Member
. once saved always saved arminian, not a true arminian.
[/QUOTE]

Arminian enough.

there is a such thing as a four point Calvinist. There is no reason why there cannot be a 4 point Arminian.

You ought to embrace Arminianism so that you may have a system with some history rather than something you just made up.

Arminianism, for all it's faults, is at least consistent and well thought through and based on fair interpretations of Scripture.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
At least it's not a false doctrine, like hyper-Calvinism is! I say this hoping that all Primitive Baptist are not hyper-Calvinists.

I have never really thought much about the Primitive Baptists, but if most of them are as sharp and level headed as kyredneck, I might be interested.
 

Winman

Active Member
AND EVERY CALVINIST BELIEVES THAT WE WILL ALL PERSEVER BECAUSE OF GOD!!!!! Stop running in circles. You go from "how do you know you are elect" to "will you persevere" to "how do you know you are elect" to..... you get it...well probably not

AGREED!!!!!!
We will always be saved. Salvation is eternal. Agreed.

once saved always saved arminian, not a true arminian

Sure, if you are indeed elect you will persevere, BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE ELECT?

If once saved always saved, then what must you persevere at?

And I don't care what you call me.
 

Winman

Active Member
Arminian enough.

there is a such thing as a four point Calvinist. There is no reason why there cannot be a 4 point Arminian.

You ought to embrace Arminianism so that you may have a system with some history rather than something you just made up.

Arminianism, for all it's faults, is at least consistent and well thought through and based on fair interpretations of Scripture.

I don't care about Arminian or Calvinist history, what does that have to do with the truth of scripture?

Perhaps you need to run with the crowd, not me.

So thanks, but no thanks.
 
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