Perseverance of the Saints v Eternal Security

[Iconoclast]

Finally, some substance. Thank you!

Hello Ken,
I think there is still much misunderstanding of God's enabling grace in sanctification.
The love and grace of God leads to a law keeping perseverance in the life of the saints.
The power is all of God, all of grace. Nevertheless we are unprofitable servants doing those good works which were ordained for us.
Fears of legalism, a works salvation, or a modern tendency toward practical antinomianism are the door ways to drifting away on this issue.I

 

[Van]

It is not enough to say that you do not see any difference. The question in this discussion is, what will you do with the differences presented in the opening posts? Do you acknowledges that they are differences (in which case you now see a difference), or do you deny that they are in fact differences (or perhaps, significant differences)?

According to one poster, the difference is the "P" folks do not think God keeps us by protecting our faith in Christ. That would be a significant difference if true. Please state in one sentence what you claim is a difference.

 

[utilyan]

Calvinist elect cannot be saved, since it can be proven they have never been in any danger at all.

 

[Calv1]

Calvinist elect cannot be saved, since it can be proven they have never been in any danger at all.

This is a clear example of illiteracy, of not being able to understand that God WORKS OUT OUR SALVATION, yes its true that the Elect were never, or never are in any danger, yet NONETHELESS THE WORK MUST BE DONE.

How about this one Arminiains Jeremiah 32:40, you know that Old Book, the one prophesizing the New Covenant, what will happen? "I will put the fear of myself in them so they leave me not: "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me."

If Arminians put down their traditons, actually studied the bible and BELIEVED what it said, we'd have no Arminians. It's no surprise Reformed folks are highly educated in scripture, honoring God's word, and the Arminian barely knows what's inside. The great theologians of history, all Reformed, Augustine I know when he lived, Luther who believed in Predestination, bondage of the will every bit as much as Calvin, go down the line, Knox, Bunyan, Owens, the greatest, even by secular scholars, Jonathan Edwards, and I know abundance of brilliant minds isn't evidence, but it's not just them, Reformed theology IS THE CHURCH from the Reformation up until what Spurgeon called the "Downgrade", that was German Higher Criticism making it's way to England, and pastors suddenly becoming liberal, this is the birth of the Arminian revival, breaking out into non-Reformed Baptists, Pentecostals, and the rest, but throughout history, if you exposed Arminianism you were a outsider, the Pilgrims were all Reformed, all read the Geneva Bible, our founding Fathers, all Reformed "Providence" RI, it's just modern liberalism, we have a plan on deck to eliminate it, God willing we can pull it off.

 

[rsr]

... It's no surprise Reformed folks are highly educated in scripture, honoring God's word, and the Arminian barely knows what's inside..

This is ridiculous. Folks like the Wesleys and Adam Clarke, not to mention the Remonstrants, were not biblically illiterate. There are many modern principled Arminian scholars who can present a biblical defense for their beliefs. You need to grow out of the Cage Calvinist stage if you want to convince people of your beliefs.

 

[utilyan]

This is a clear example of illiteracy, of not being able to understand that God WORKS OUT OUR SALVATION, yes its true that the Elect were never, or never are in any danger, yet NONETHELESS THE WORK MUST BE DONE.

How about this one Arminiains Jeremiah 32:40, you know that Old Book, the one prophesizing the New Covenant, what will happen? "I will put the fear of myself in them so they leave me not: "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me."

If Arminians put down their traditons, actually studied the bible and BELIEVED what it said, we'd have no Arminians. It's no surprise Reformed folks are highly educated in scripture, honoring God's word, and the Arminian barely knows what's inside. The great theologians of history, all Reformed, Augustine I know when he lived, Luther who believed in Predestination, bondage of the will every bit as much as Calvin, go down the line, Knox, Bunyan, Owens, the greatest, even by secular scholars, Jonathan Edwards, and I know abundance of brilliant minds isn't evidence, but it's not just them, Reformed theology IS THE CHURCH from the Reformation up until what Spurgeon called the "Downgrade", that was German Higher Criticism making it's way to England, and pastors suddenly becoming liberal, this is the birth of the Arminian revival, breaking out into non-Reformed Baptists, Pentecostals, and the rest, but throughout history, if you exposed Arminianism you were a outsider, the Pilgrims were all Reformed, all read the Geneva Bible, our founding Fathers, all Reformed "Providence" RI, it's just modern liberalism, we have a plan on deck to eliminate it, God willing we can pull it off.

You mean IF GOD CHOSE Armenians to put down their traditions.


God never works out your salvation, because he never worked out a threat to begin with.

You cannot be saved.


In fact you can't even be born again, Calvinist are BORN ONCE, they claim they start dead and then are born.


Even Prayer, you don't do, because every seasoned Calvinist with half a brain knows you don't make requests.


But don't worry I have the LOVE OF GOD as an example of how to love others:

John 17

25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

The LOVE IN WHICH God loves Jesus is IN ME.

So being Calvinist lets see........ ::::FLIP A COIN::: Sorry Calv1, I don't love you , gotta do it God's way. Sorry son your not elect, have a great day.

 

[Mr. Davis]

I don't think so. Having re-read your O.Ps, I'm inclined to think that you are over-stating the differences somewhat. I had intended to quote from the Baptist 1689 Confession but it seems that Iconoclast has beaten me to it.

Matthew 24:13 states, 'But he who endures to the end shall be saved.' That text must be harmonized with others that state, for instance, 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.....' (Romans 8:1), but of course the Majority Text continues, '.......who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.' The harmonization of these texts must mean that God will preserve His elect by giving them grace to persevere through tribulation. The Lord Jesus told His apostles, "These things I have spoken to you that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world' (John 16:33).

Those who have read John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress will recall that Pilgrim had to pass through the wicket gate to start his pilgrimage. The gate stands for faith and repentance. All those who passed through the gate and entered upon the road, eventually reached the Celestial City, even though they had to pass through the valley of the Shadow of Death and other obstacles. But as he walked, Pilgrim saw two men, Formalist and Hypocrisy come tumbling over the wall rather than passing through the gate. These men appeared to be on the road just the same as Pilgrim, but they never surmounted the Hill of Difficulty and therefore never arrived at the Celestial City.

My great fear is that teaching Eternal Security or OSAS, leads people to think that because they have gone forward to the front at a meeting and prayed a prayer or signed a card, they are saved forever no matter how they live.

There has been a great scandal in the Church in Britain concerning a well-known Pastor and Conference speaker. I heard him speak once and it never occurred to me that he was anything but a fine, upstanding Christian and an excellent preacher. However, it appears that earlier this year he was confronted by his wife concerning multiple infidelities with women in his congregation and took his own life to avoid the consequences of his actions. 1 Corinthians 10:1-13, especially verse 12, seems appropriate.

To know our perfect standing in Christ does not lead to laxity in daily life.

The divine order cannot be safely ignored, which is first to reveal the grace position, and then to appeal for the corresponding manner of daily life. God’s children are too often fed on mere injunctions with no reference to the corresponding and related positions. This will always result in a hardening of heart and carelessness of life.

Assurance is born of confidence in Christ. He has said: “Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (KJV).

“All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God…And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.

“Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love” ( 1 John 4:15-18 NLT).

Such a precious experience as is described by these passages may become clouded by sin or lost in the depression of some physical weakness, and were we depending upon the experience as primary evidence that we are saved, all grounds of assurance would be swept away.

The possession of the indwelling Son of God is the abiding fact of the created life in Him, and should never be confused with some imperfect and changeable experience in the daily life.

The Bible use of the word “assurance” will be found in several passages: “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith.” (Heb. 10:22) This is the confidence that grows out of a repose of faith in the faithfulness of God that He will fulfil every word He has spoken. “And unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding” (Col 2:2). This is the breadth of confidence that grows as one increasingly enters into the vastness of God’s revelation of His grace in Christ Jesus.

“And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence of the full assurance of hope unto the end.” (Heb 6:11) Here is a reference to that assurance which is the full conviction that every promise and revelation concerning the future will be surely fulfilled. This, like all assurance, is simply the result of believing God.

Salvation. A Clear Doctrinal Analysis. Lewis Sperry Chafer, late President of Dallas Theological Seminary, 1917.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I cannot help but notice that you didn't address any of the points I made in my post, but never mind.

To know our perfect standing in Christ does not lead to laxity in daily life.

If you have a perfect standing in Christ, then nothing will lead to laxity in your daily life. But 'not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven.'

The divine order cannot be safely ignored, which is first to reveal the grace position, and then to appeal for the corresponding manner of daily life. God’s children are too often fed on mere injunctions with no reference to the corresponding and related positions. This will always result in a hardening of heart and carelessness of life.

This is correct. Simply telling people to live better lives will not save anyone. But those who are saved by grace are also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and if someone is living a consistently unholy life, why would he think that he has the Sprit?

Assurance is born of confidence in Christ. He has said: “Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (KJV).

The one who comes in true repentance and faith will not be cast out, but not everyone who claims to have come to Him has either of those things. 'Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him' (1 John 2:3-4).

“All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God…

No! Ten thousand times no! How easy it is to make an orthodox profession, but to have no true repentance or love of God in one's heart.

And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.

If we are living like Jesus in the world we certainly need not be afraid on the day of judgement.

“Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love” ( 1 John 4:15-18 NLT).

I am pretty sure that Chafer did not quote from the NLT.
1 John 4:15, NKJV. 'Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.'
But this verse must be taken in conjunction with
1 John 3:24. ''Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.' Compare these verses with Romans 8:12-17).

Such a precious experience as is described by these passages may become clouded by sin or lost in the depression of some physical weakness, and were we depending upon the experience as primary evidence that we are saved, all grounds of assurance would be swept away.

Indeed so. The true child of God who falls into sin will be brought up short by God and brought to repentance as David was (2 Samuel 12:1-13). But the one who continues in sin without repentance is not a Christian whatever profession he may have made. Read 1 John 3:4-9.

 

[Reformed]

It helps to unpack how these different views are understood by their respective theological presuppositions. For instance, Fundamentalism has a bent against attaching any idea of good works as the fruit of repentance to its eternal security view. No Fundamentalist would say that good works are not the ideal, however they wouldn't insist on them because it doesn't fit their theological construct. On the other hand, those on the Perseverance/Preservation side place great weight on repentance and good works. So, looked at in this way, it's not an attempt to divide the brethren.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Simply telling people to live better lives will not save anyone. But those who are saved by grace are also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and if someone is living a consistently unholy life, why would he think that he has the Spirit?

I thought it might be helpful to give a more full account of my understanding on this issue.
Here is something I wrote on my blog as part of a series on the New Birth.
New Birth (9). Evidences of the New Birth

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree with it. 'We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God' (Acts 14:22). God's elect will be saved, but they will not be saved without persevering through the aforementioned tribulations.

That is one f the signs that they were really saved, as they will continue to press onward despite trials!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't think so. Having re-read your O.Ps, I'm inclined to think that you are over-stating the differences somewhat. I had intended to quote from the Baptist 1689 Confession but it seems that Iconoclast has beaten me to it.

Matthew 24:13 states, 'But he who endures to the end shall be saved.' That text must be harmonized with others that state, for instance, 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.....' (Romans 8:1), but of course the Majority Text continues, '.......who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.' The harmonization of these texts must mean that God will preserve His elect by giving them grace to persevere through tribulation. The Lord Jesus told His apostles, "These things I have spoken to you that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world' (John 16:33).

Those who have read John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress will recall that Pilgrim had to pass through the wicket gate to start his pilgrimage. The gate stands for faith and repentance. All those who passed through the gate and entered upon the road, eventually reached the Celestial City, even though they had to pass through the valley of the Shadow of Death and other obstacles. But as he walked, Pilgrim saw two men, Formalist and Hypocrisy come tumbling over the wall rather than passing through the gate. These men appeared to be on the road just the same as Pilgrim, but they never surmounted the Hill of Difficulty and therefore never arrived at the Celestial City.

My great fear is that teaching Eternal Security or OSAS, leads people to think that because they have gone forward to the front at a meeting and prayed a prayer or signed a card, they are saved forever no matter how they live.

There has been a great scandal in the Church in Britain concerning a well-known Pastor and Conference speaker. I heard him speak once and it never occurred to me that he was anything but a fine, upstanding Christian and an excellent preacher. However, it appears that earlier this year he was confronted by his wife concerning multiple infidelities with women in his congregation and took his own life to avoid the consequences of his actions. 1 Corinthians 10:1-13, especially verse 12, seems appropriate.

Think that a key thing on this topic would be to have a biblical and balanced viewpoint, as those of us holding to the reformed view on this issue would not want to go so far as to say that we must have enough good works and a enough of our lives set apart well enough to merit salvation, nor should those of us more on a baptist view want to state that we jst can hold unto a one time act, and have no fruit to evidence any real change!

 

[Yeshua1]

Even under calvinism, the sinner must receive jesus thru faith to be saved though!