Perseverance of the Saints

[romanbear]

Hi everyone;

Calvin seemed ambivalent on this. He made statements both for limited and Unlimited atonement.In Isaiah53:12 he said "on Him was laid the guilt of the whole world"George Zeller cited in "For Whom Did Christ Die"(The middle town Bible Church,349 East street Middle town Ct.06457,1999),23-24.

Concerning
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Calvin said the word many does not mean part of the world, but the whole human race.from John Calvin New Testament Commentaries(Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing co. 1994 vol 3 P. 139.

On 1 John 2:2,Calvin declared "Christ Died for the whole world,and the goodness of God is offered unto all men without distinction,His blood being shed for the whole human race. From Augustus H. Strong,Systematic theology(Judson press 1907),778. For proof that this an authentic Quotation,See Vance,op. cit.467-468.

In Calvin's will drawn up just before his death He says "I humbly seek from God to be washed and purified by the redeemers blood,shed for the sins of the human race.Zeller op cit.

Calvin himself didn't seem to be to sure of being elected in my opinion. I wonder how many Calvinist can really and truthfully say they are sure of there election?

Romanbear

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
I wonder how many Calvinist can really and truthfully say they are sure of there election?

Me.

By the way, you titled this thread "perseverance", then you talk about "particular redemption", then you talk about "unconditional election". Which is it?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Calvin seemed ambivalent on this. He made statements both for limited and Unlimited atonement.

Not that it matters what Calvin taught(I believe the Bible, not Calvin), but here is an interesting article about whether Calvin taught particular redemption - web page.

I believe he did teach particular redemption. I also believe that the only reason some people try to make a point that the did not is because they disagree with this Biblical position and mistakenly think if they can cast doubts on what Calvin taught, they can undermine the doctrines of God's amazing grace. They are badly mistaken.

 

[romanbear]

Ken;
Every Calvinist here will say that Calvinism is a whole made up of five parts. This thread is about your assurance of being elected. Which is all conected to the rest of the tulip. Calvinist believe that if your not elected you have nothing but are destin to Hell.How can you persever with out being elected? For that matter how can you be a Calvinist without election? You have to admit that if your not elected you have no perseverance of the saints.

Romanbear

 

[Frogman]

Whether or not we are of the election is not a problem to us simply because our 'coming' to Christ is evidence of our election. You know this from previous posts as to what we believe, in this way Calvinism is less restrictive than any other system.

Bro. Dallas

 

[BobRyan]

Good quotes - got any more?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Dallas,

Calvinism "mandates" salvation for the arbitrarily select "FEW" of MATT 7 and "is not concerned" about the "MANY" in that context.

Hard to imagine that being "MORE open" than "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and not for OUR SINs only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD".

Kinda reminds me of the contrast between the ARminian future scenario vs the Calvinist future scenario (complete with supporting quotes from Pastor Larry).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
1)Calvinism "mandates" salvation for the arbitrarily select "FEW" of MATT 7 and "is not concerned" about the "MANY" in that context.

2)Kinda reminds me of the contrast between the Arminian future scenario vs the Calvinist future scenario (complete with supporting quotes from Pastor Larry).

1) As a brother in Christ, I respectfully ask, and would deeply appreciate, if you would quit saying that I have no concern for the lost. You are attacking my character by such an allegation.

2) I see you are still peddling that false scenario. I appreciate that you did not repeat the silly thing but only referenced it.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
For that matter how can you be a Calvinist without election?

The most important thing is to be a Christian and the elect are the ones who are saved.

 

[Frogman]

If what I wrote reminds you of anything I cannot help that, I do not know of the 'scenario' nor the supporting quotes from Pastor Larry that you are talking about.

I do know what I believe, if this is similar to Pastor Larry that is fine, if not, that is fine.

Bro. Dallas

 

[BobRyan]

Ken
1) As a brother in Christ, I respectfully ask, and would deeply appreciate, if you would quit saying that I have no concern for the lost. You are attacking my character by such an allegation.

This also gets to what Dallas has posted - the "support" for the fact that Calvinism's response when "confronted with the case of the lost" is to "ignore their plight and point ONLY to the case of the saved".

Pastor Larry
Christ was Arminian? (Page 6) posted April 16, 2003 10:55 AM
You said How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?. The biblical response is "Yes, this is something to shout about since the angels in heaven shout over even one." The "relative few" (in your words) are certainly more than one and bring great joy, and great shouting in heaven.

Yelsew's excellent point about the monster known as Saddam and Pastor Larry’s point about our Joy that God would arbitrarily select US to be saved - deserves a follow up illustration.

When the 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear - "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about You in the end) Blessing the fact that He chose You - that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's. So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not allowed the "luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?

God who arbitrarily selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the calvinist mind.

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
This also gets to what Dallas has posted - the "support" for the fact that Calvinism's response when "confronted with the case of the lost" is to "ignore their plight and point ONLY to the case of the saved".

What in the world are you talking about, Bob? ... You have absolutely no charity in your heart toward those with whom you disagree, either in this forum or elsewhere on this board where I have read your posts on other subjects.

[ April 28, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

In John Calvin's Commentary on Romans, he stated the following in reference to Romans 5:18 (p. 211 in the 1979 reprinting):

"He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all (i.e. in their experience), for though Christ suffered for the sins of the world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."

It should be noted that Calvin died in 1564, the Remonstrance was written until 1610, and the Synod of Dort (where the 5 points came from) didn't happen until 1618.

From Calvin's Commentary to the Colossians and COmmentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, he wrote regarding Colossians 1:14, "This redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death, all the sins of the world have been expiated." On Mark 14:24, he wrote, "...which is shed for many. By the word 'many' he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race."

In his Commentary to John, he writes, "And when he says the sin of the world, he extends this favour indisriminately to the whole human race, that the Jews might not thing that he had been sent to them alone. But hense we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation and that as all men with out exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking of the sin of the world, intended to express upon us the conviction of our own misery and exhort us to seek the remedy."

In fact, in Institutes 3.1.1, Calvin states that Christ had to have died for all to show His complete sovreignty. That is all that is mentioned about limited or unlimited atonement in his entire Institutes, (unless anyone else knows of a place that was missed.) Calvin thought that the atonement was limited in effect, it is also clear that in principle no people were barred from salvation.

Thus, limited atonement was a post-Calvin invention and is not faithful to his teachings or writings.

For more, read Douty's book "Death of Christ." He's a four-point Calvinist, who doesn't ascribe to nor believe Calvin ascribed to an idea of limited atonement.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Thus, limited atonement was a post-Calvin invention and is not faithful to his teachings or writings.

We have gone through this argument before, Scott. And I have again posted a link earlier in this thread to an article that proves you are wrong.

Here we are on the theological merry-go-round.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Thus, limited atonement was a post-Calvin invention and is not faithful to his teachings or writings.

We have gone through this argument before, Scott. And I have again posted a link earlier in this thread to an article that proves you are wrong.

Here we are on the theological merry-go-round.

</font>[/QUOTE]From your article:

In an Appendix to his Ph.D. dissertation Curt D. Daniel discusses the question, “Did John Calvin Teach Limited Atonement?”44 This is by far the most extensive treatment of this topic I have ever seen. It provides more quotations of Calvin related to this precise issue than any previous writer; it discusses adequately and fairly the arguments advanced by those who have published materials in this area; it has extensive bibliographies of previous studies; it takes cognizance of three Aberdeen doctoral dissertations that were not available to me by Robert Letham, Robert Doyle, and M. Charles Bell.45

Lest it should appear that this study makes the present essay superfluous, it must be added that Daniel’s conclusion is that Calvin held to universal atonement, while I, even after examining the data and arguments advanced by Daniel, remain convinced that the balance of evidence favors the opposite view.

Even the article admits that the published evidence leans towards Calvin believing in general atonement.

Perhaps someone should find Daniel's dissertation and post it - since the author admits that it is the most extensive treatment of Calvin's views as any other.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Even the article admits that the published evidence leans towards Calvin believing in general atonement.

You are misrepresenting, Scott. You wrote a false statement.

Just because a person presents an extensive analysis does not prove his conclusion is correct.

Of course, regardless of what Calvin taught, the Bible teaches definite atonement and that's all I care about and all I wish to be in agreement with.

 

[russell55]

In fact, in Institutes 3.1.1, Calvin states that Christ had to have died for all to show His complete sovreignty.

Scott, can you find the direct quote for me. I looked through 3.1.1 and can find nothing like that stated. In fact, here is 3.1.1 in it's entirety:

1. We must now see in what way we become possessed of the blessings which God has bestowed on his only-begotten Son, not for private use, but to enrich the poor and needy. And the first thing to be attended to is, that so long as we are without Christ and separated from him, nothing which he suffered and did for the salvation of the human race is of the least benefit to us. To communicate to us the blessings which he received from the Father, he must become ours and dwell in us. Accordingly, he is called our Head, and the first-born among many brethren, while, on the other hand, we are said to be ingrafted into him and clothed with him, all which he possesses being, as I have said, nothing to us until we become one with him. And although it is true that we obtain this by faith, yet since we see that all do not indiscriminately embrace the offer of Christ which is made by the gospel, the very nature of the case teaches us to ascend higher, and inquire into the secret efficacy of the Spirit, to which it is owing that we enjoy Christ and all his blessings. I have already treated of the eternal essence and divinity of the Spirit, (Book 1 chap. 13 sect. 14, 15 let us at present attend to the special point, that Christ came by water and blood, as the Spirit testifies concerning him, that we might not lose the benefits of the salvation which he has purchased. For as there are said to be three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, so there are also three on the earth, namely, water, blood, and Spirit. It is not without cause that the testimony of the Spirit is twice mentioned, a testimony which is engraven on our hearts by way of seal, and thus seals the cleansing and sacrifice of Christ For which reason, also, Peter says, that believers are "elect" "through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," (1 Pet. 1: 2.) By these words he reminds us, that if the shedding of his sacred blood is not to be in vain, our souls must be washed in it by the secret cleansing of the Holy Spirit. For which reason, also, Paul, speaking of cleansing and purification, says, "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God," (1 Cor. 6: 11.) The whole comes to this that the Holy Spirit is the bond by which Christ effectually binds us to himself. Here we may refer to what was said in the last Book concerning his anointing.

 

[KenH]

I think this is the charge that is made - "He [Paul] says that this redemption was procured by the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of His death all the sins of the world have been expiated" (Institutes 3.1.1, comments on Colossians 1:15).

I found the above on a website - www.ifca.org/voice/00Jul-Aug/bauer.htm.

Does this help in researching this item?

 

[russell55]

I also think that in all likelyhood, Calvin used the words "all" and "world" and even "human race" to mean something less than every single person. I think this is something that is overlooked by those who take quotes with those words in them and use them as proof that Calvin believed in a universal atonement.

Anyway, here is an interesting quote from his commentaries on 1 John 2:2:

Here a question may be raised, how have the sins of the whole world been expiated?..... the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world.

So I tend to believe that when Calvin says things like "the sins of the world are expiated", he is speaking in the same sense that he outlines quite clearly above--that the sins of all who believe throughout the world are expiated.

But it's really difficult to make a definitive statement about Calvin's view on the extent of the atonement when he simply didn't address it in any sort of a systematic way, but makes a very few tantalizing statements that may or may not address it. For every statement that seems (on the surface anyway) to support universal atonement, there is an equally strong one that seems to point the other direction.

Also, many of the statements used as evidence that he supported universal atonement are really just statements that he supports a universal offer of the gospel and are not statements on the extent of the atonement at all.

 

[tyndale1946]

Will God save all his people that he gave his Son... Jesus Christ to save?... If he will accomplish all that he came in the world to do... Who is lost and what are they lost to?... If some are going to be lost worlds without end according to some of the thought on here God is unjust?

Since all are included in unbelief both Jews and Gentile... Where is the unjustice of God?... When it states further that he might have mercy on all.
If mercy was not extended to all none would be saved?

Did the Angel from God know what he was talking about when he told Mary that holy seed growing in her called Jesus would save all his people?... Even a child can understand those words whereas theological giants and those that wannabe want to tell God his business.

What tears my heart up and makes me weep bitter tears are how some think that their loved ones are lost worlds without end?... My wife Charlotte and I believed in God soon after we both were born... Our parents emphasized there was a God but all I had to do was look around me to see it was so and her also.

What I see on here is the callousness and hard heartedness of believers who don't believe God knows what he is doing. Go to any religion... Pick one... Do you have the heart to tell the one grieving for the one departed where they went?... Not only that can you say with certainity where they are?... If you can you are playing God.

If there is a Perserverance of the Saints how did they perservere... If you tell me by their works they perservered... The Primitive Baptist of which I am don't buy it... Christ is the only reason the saints of God perservere!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

1st Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Isn't it wonderful that eternity is hidden in the hearts of men... Where they cannot go and corrupt the work God has done and still does daily. Are any lost to God in an eternal sense?... Will Christ not save all his people that the Father gave him to save and none else?

The only reason the saints perservere is because Jesus Christ perservered... It is the Faith of Christ and In Christ and his works that the saints of God have their blessed assurance... Without that none are saved and we are all on the hellbound train instead of bound for glory... Brother Glen

&

Sister Charlotte