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Perseverance of the Saints
- Thread starter romanbear
- Start date
Y
Yelsew
Guest
And your favorite verse is "For by faith are ye saved by grace and not of yourself is it a gift of God, but you gotta do some works too!" 1 Frogman 2:2
Ray Berrian
New Member
Romanbear,
Every once in a while we need to be reminded as you did for us that it is not our doctrine that saves us but Jesus cleansing blood. I liked your opening post on this particular topic. It is interesting that modern Calvinists appear to be more sure of their Five Points than even their Christian flag bearer, John Calvin.
Thanks again for your reminder to all of the brethren.
Every once in a while we need to be reminded as you did for us that it is not our doctrine that saves us but Jesus cleansing blood. I liked your opening post on this particular topic. It is interesting that modern Calvinists appear to be more sure of their Five Points than even their Christian flag bearer, John Calvin.
Thanks again for your reminder to all of the brethren.
Has anyone ever witnessed this illustration? I have. A young eagle, unable to sustain flight and the mother eagle comes in under the young to carry and support its weight to a solid ground, this continues until the young eagle is strong enough to fly itself.
Does no one see the picture of Grace in this?
at vs. 4 is the picture of God's Grace carrying his people to himself; after is the declaration of the people that they are now strong enough to 'fly' of their own; thus rejecting the covenant of Grace and bringing about the covenant of Law which they cannot fulfill except they do so by the Grace of God.
All is of Grace, deny it though you may, all is of Grace or else grace is no more grace.
God by Grace chose to send his eternal Son; by Grace the eternal Son entered into covenant with the Father to come in the flesh (a son is given, a child is born) made according to the flesh, and in the flesh condemned sin; by Grace the Spirit is sent forth into the hearts of those who are children...because ye are sons...Gal. 4.6; the Spirit beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God...Rom. 8.16.
All of Grace or nothing.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Do you not see that as an attribute, something which is true of the one possessing it, God's Grace is not something that can be given or bestowed?
God instilled the attribute of grace into his created man so that man too has grace as an attribute, and no man can give his grace to another. However every man can behave in accordance with his attributes.
The way you describe grace it is a commodity that God hands out to those he will, like candy. I cannot understand the God of all creation to be one who picks and chooses from the whole, just some that he will give his grace candy to. Especially when he has given to all via the creation, grace as an attribute.
Grace is not the saving agent, lest all be saved. But alas only those who have faith are saved, even Abraham. Hebrews Chapter 11 describes the biblical principle.
Without God's grace none would be saved, it is true. because without God's grace to offset his justice the first sin that a man does would result in instantaneous death...the wages of sin is death!
However, if it is God's grace that saves, then all of mankind is saved because God is no respector of man and all mankind are included within God's grace. That refutes Calvin and the doctrine of election.
God instilled the attribute of grace into his created man so that man too has grace as an attribute, and no man can give his grace to another. However every man can behave in accordance with his attributes.
The way you describe grace it is a commodity that God hands out to those he will, like candy. I cannot understand the God of all creation to be one who picks and chooses from the whole, just some that he will give his grace candy to. Especially when he has given to all via the creation, grace as an attribute.
Grace is not the saving agent, lest all be saved. But alas only those who have faith are saved, even Abraham. Hebrews Chapter 11 describes the biblical principle.
Without God's grace none would be saved, it is true. because without God's grace to offset his justice the first sin that a man does would result in instantaneous death...the wages of sin is death!
However, if it is God's grace that saves, then all of mankind is saved because God is no respector of man and all mankind are included within God's grace. That refutes Calvin and the doctrine of election.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible clearly teaches that man is saved by God's grace. And you are clearly heterodox in your teaching if you do not believe this, Yelsew. Other than an outright Pelagian, I know of no one who claims to be a Christian who does not acknowledge he is saved by God's grace. All forms of Arminians, Calvinists, and Hyper-Calvinists acknowdedge that salvation is by God's grace. That is not a point of disagreement among us.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I have clearly stated that without God's grace no man can be saved. But that it is the faith of the individual in God and God's Son Jesus that saves the individual. Because if it was grace that saves, every human that ever lived is saved, because God's grace has been around since Adam, but especially since Jesus. God is no respector of man, therefore every man is under God's Grace.
SAVED BY GRACE squarely refutes the doctrine of election. What a tangled web you calvinists weave!
SAVED BY GRACE squarely refutes the doctrine of election. What a tangled web you calvinists weave!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Grace provides faith "For to EACH ONE is given a measure of faith" Romans 12.
Grace provides the drawing of ALL mankind "I will draw ALL MANKIND unto Me"
Grace provides the opportunity of faith "I stand at the door and knock IF ANY MAN hear my voice AND OPEN the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.
Grace provides the forgiveness "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1John 2:2
Grace "saves" by BRINGING the Gospel TO the sinner and ENABLING the sinner to aCCEPT. But still the Sinner must CHOOSE to actively RECEIVE "For as MANY AS RECIEVED HIM to THEM He gave the right to become the children of God".
In Scripture ACTION taken by a person is always attributed to the DECISION of that person whether it is a GOOD action or a BAD action.
In Christ,
Bob
Grace provides the drawing of ALL mankind "I will draw ALL MANKIND unto Me"
Grace provides the opportunity of faith "I stand at the door and knock IF ANY MAN hear my voice AND OPEN the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.
Grace provides the forgiveness "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1John 2:2
Grace "saves" by BRINGING the Gospel TO the sinner and ENABLING the sinner to aCCEPT. But still the Sinner must CHOOSE to actively RECEIVE "For as MANY AS RECIEVED HIM to THEM He gave the right to become the children of God".
In Scripture ACTION taken by a person is always attributed to the DECISION of that person whether it is a GOOD action or a BAD action.
In Christ,
Bob
Romans 12:1 ¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you , not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith .
This is speaking to those of the household of faith.
Bro. Dallas
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"every man among you" is not to think more highly of himself than he ought.
We ALSO have the fact that God has given "to EVERY MAN a measure of faith" - and so there is no need for Christians to view ourselves with a sense of pride over others - for EVERY man is given a measure of faith "To each one".
In Christ,
Bob
We ALSO have the fact that God has given "to EVERY MAN a measure of faith" - and so there is no need for Christians to view ourselves with a sense of pride over others - for EVERY man is given a measure of faith "To each one".
In Christ,
Bob
KenH
Well-Known Member
Since, according to Bob, every man has faith and since everyone with faith will be in Heaven, the logical conclusion of Bob's teaching is that everyone will be saved.
I thought it was only Calvinists who are accused of there being no point in preaching, on the basis of the Calvinistic system. Now, apparently, Arminianism can have the same charge laid at its feet.
I thought it was only Calvinists who are accused of there being no point in preaching, on the basis of the Calvinistic system. Now, apparently, Arminianism can have the same charge laid at its feet.