Perseverance of the Saints

[russell55]

The problem with you analogy is that in the end, God doesn't pass anyone who is less than an honor student. He takes students who on their own can get none of the questions right, and works on them until they get all the questions right. The good work he begins in His students he perfects:

...being confident of this very thing: that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus...

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by russell55:
The problem with you analogy is that in the end, God doesn't pass anyone who is less than an honor student. He takes students who on their own can get none of the questions right, and works on them until they get all the questions right. The good work he begins in His students he perfects:

...being confident of this very thing: that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus...

Originally posted by russell55:
The problem with you analogy is that in the end, God doesn't pass anyone who is less than an honor student.

How do you reconcile your idea that God does not pass anyone who is not an "honor student"(does his will,lives a righteous and holy life, does good works) with I Corinthians 3:11-14(NIV)?

"11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."


Or how about Romans 9:14-16(NIV)?

"14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

The "means of salvation" bunch seem to say something directly contrary to scripture like you said in a previous post "The salvation worked out here is the result of God's continuing inner work in the life of the believer. It is something that is happening and continues throughout our lifetime, and something we are exhorted to cooperate in."

So we need exercise "ardent effort" as I have read in other "mean of salvation" papers and as you say we need to "cooperate in" God's inner work so we can finally be saved right?

The scriptures tell me it "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

You are said:"Salvation means we are delivered from God's wrath, but we are delived from God's wrath by also being delivered from the rule of sin. Even though in a real way we have already received salvation, there is a "not yet" aspect to it as well:"

Paul tells me in Romans 8:1(NIV) that "...there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," - this questions your "not yet" idea.

Romans 8:22-25(NIV)
"22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."

We wait for "the redemption of our bodies" -our glorified sinless bodies - "For in this hope we WERE SAVED"(not are being saved, or will be saved). And as the Apostle Paul states "Who hopes for what he already has?" Are we or will we ever be sinless in this life? Of course not.

This is the problem with the whole idea that if a person is truly saved he will do good works, because then you have to ask yourself, how much good works does he have to do to be consider truly saved?

That my friend is the $10,000,000 question.

Consider Paul's words on our sinful nature in
Romans 7:21-25(NIV)
"21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Christ will one day "rescue me from this body of death" but until then I will still be a sinner no matter how much I do not want to be and I will "wait for it patiently" as the Apostle Paul tells me.

Looking forward to your reply,

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

russell55,

Just so you don't miss it I want to reiterate the big question for you, if someone must do good works after salvation how much is enough? How do we know if someone is truly saved - if they only go to church once a month than they are not? If they read their Bible twice a week instead of every day they are not?

How righteous do they have to be?

(I am getting a feeling like I have said things like this before to people I have witnessed to -oh now I remember now - they were Catholic!)

IFBReformer

 

[russell55]

I've only got a few minutes right now, but let me start responding to your post.

How do you reconcile your idea that God does not pass anyone who is not an "honor student"(does his will,lives a righteous and holy life, does good works) with I Corinthians 3:11-14(NIV)?

Let me explain what I think that verse from Philippians means, and how I think it relates to your analogy of passing the test, and maybe that will help clear up the confusion I seem to have caused. When God began his good work in us--when we were first born again--our nature was changed (we became new creatures), and in addition to that, the Holy Spirit began dwelling within us. This means that we begin a new life, and along with being declared righteous through the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, we begin the process of becoming actually righteous through the work of the Holy Spirit within us. To use your test analogy, we go from getting none of the answers right, and not caring one twit that we failed miserably, to desiring to get more and more of those answers right. Some will learn the right answers faster than others, but we will all improve, little by little. God will do what is required to work a maturing process within us, including chastening us. Then finally, on that final day when we are glorified, the process will be complete and we will all be honor students--we will no longer get any of the answers wrong--ever!

 

[Daniel David]

It isn't about doing good works to get justified.

God uses good works (those works done by faith as one who is already justified) to accomplish sanctification (this is known as being saved). You are not totally saved from sin in its ultimate way until you totally stop sinning. This happens at glorification. Thus, you are saved, being saved, and you will be saved.

Sanctification is guaranteed. If I understand your posts IFB, you believe that justification happens but sanctification might not. How do you see this lining up with the N.T.?

 

[russell55]

Or how about Romans 9:14-16(NIV)?

"14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

Of course. Even our sanctification is done by God's grace through our faith. That's why we are called "God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before ordained that we should walk in them...." The good works we do are the result of God's work within us. We are God's creation, the product of God's work.

The "means of salvation" bunch seem to say something directly contrary to scripture like you said in a previous post "The salvation worked out here is the result of God's continuing inner work in the life of the believer. It is something that is happening and continues throughout our lifetime, and something we are exhorted to cooperate in."

So what's unscriptural about that statement? It's directly taken from those two verses in Philippians. If you don't think it's an accurate paraphrase of those verses, then what do those two verses mean?

So we need exercise "ardent effort" as I have read in other "mean of salvation" papers and as you say we need to "cooperate in" God's inner work so we can finally be saved right?

Nope. It isn't because we work that we are saved; it's because we are being saved that we work. We work because of God's saving work within us. The exhortations to good works that we find in scripture are part of the means God uses to produce good works within us. They are part of the process of santification. Just like our faith results when the message of the gospel meets the enlightening work of the Holy Spirit, so too our sanctification results when exhortations to righteousness meet the inner renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

Paul tells me in Romans 8:1(NIV) that "...there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," - this questions your "not yet" idea.

Not really. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. But being "in Christ" means also means that our old man was crucified with Him, that we are no longer slaves to sin, and that "now, having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." (Romans 6, especially verse 22)

We are already in Christ Jesus, we are already not condemned, but we are not yet completely sanctified and we have not yet received the outcome of the work of salvation--eternal life.

Romans 8:22-25(NIV)
"22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."

We wait for "the redemption of our bodies" -our glorified sinless bodies - "For in this hope we WERE SAVED"(not are being saved, or will be saved). And as the Apostle Paul states "Who hopes for what he already has?"

Yep, you see the "already" aspect here (were saved), and the "not yet" (our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our bodies.)

Are we or will we ever be sinless in this life? Of course not.

I agree. But if we are truly born again, if we have a new nature and the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, there ought to be some evidence that we are growing more holy. If there isn't any evidence of the growth of spiritual fruit within us, then we really have no assurance that we have ever been born again, that we have become new creation, that we have begun a new life. If the Spirit is living within us, then we ought to struggle against sin, we should not be able to sin with impunity.

This is the problem with the whole idea that if a person is truly saved he will do good works, because then you have to ask yourself, how much good works does he have to do to be consider truly saved?

That my friend is the $10,000,000 question.

That's not the $10,000 dollar question. We don't do good works to be saved, we do good works as a result of the continuous work of God in salvation within us. How many good works someone ought to be doing is really none of our business. It's God's business, and God's work that produces those good works.

But all over scripture is the idea that our assurance of salvation comes from seeing the workmanship of God in our life. How do we know we have eternal life? We ask ourselves: Do we walk in the light? Do we keep His commandments? Do we love our brothers and sisters? Do we not love the world? Do we practice righteousness? Do we love God? (1 John)

Consider Paul's words on our sinful nature in
Romans 7:21-25(NIV)

I don't think that part of Romans 7 refers to someone who has been regenerated and freed from sin and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Christ will one day "rescue me from this body of death" but until then I will still be a sinner no matter how much I do not want to be and I will "wait for it patiently" as the Apostle Paul tells me.

We have already been freed from slavery to sin, we are no longer under sin's dominion, and there ought to be a difference in our lives because of that. We don't yet have our redeemed bodies, so we are not yet perfected. but we are nonetheless changed and are being changed.

(And where does it say we wait for it patiently? We wait for it eagerly, groaning within ourselves....sound a bit like impatience to me. )

Two more questions for you (along with the one above asking what you think Philippians 2:12, 13 mean): If you think that your salvation is already completed, please explain what you think it means when it says in 1 Peter 1:5 that we are "kept...for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"? What does it mean when it says in Hebrews 9:28 that "To those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear a second time...for salvation"?

[ April 11, 2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by russell55:


quote:

MY INTIAL STATEMENT:
"The "means of salvation" bunch seem to say something directly contrary to scripture like you said in a previous post "The salvation worked out here is the result of God's continuing inner work in the life of the believer. It is something that is happening and continues throughout our lifetime, and something we are exhorted to cooperate in.""

YOUR RESPONSE:
So what's unscriptural about that statement? It's directly taken from those two verses in Philippians. If you don't think it's an accurate paraphrase of those verses, then what do those two verses mean?

Looking at it now I don't see anything wrong with your statement that "we are exhorted to cooperate in" our sanctifaction.

If you had said "we must cooperate in our sanctifaction in order to inherit eternal life" than I would have big problem with that.

But I do have problems with statements like Schreiner and Caneday's:

"Since the writer [of Hebrews] portrays the Christian life as a race needing gutsy endurance and a training ground in which discipline is meted out, we are correct in saying that obtaining the eschatological prize takes ardent effort. There is no call to passivity here!" (from "The Race Set before us")

If the "prize" was not our eternal salvation but rewards(as I believe the New Testament teaches) there would be no problem with their statement.

But since Schreiner and Caneday believe the "prize" is eternal salvation there is a huge problem here.

"God’s means-of-salvation view. The racetrack represents salvation. If one abandons the race one will not receive the prize. The prize is salvation, eternal life. Warnings and admonitions call for faith that endures to receive the prize."
(from "The Race Set before us")

So if we simply subsitute what they say the prize is - eternal life and salvation lets see how good their statements sound:

"Since the writer [of Hebrews] portrays the Christian life as a race needing gutsy endurance and a training ground in which discipline is meted out, we are correct in saying that obtaining SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE takes ardent effort. There is no call to passivity here!" (from "The Race Set before us")

Romans 9:14-16(NIV)
"14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

The scriptures tell me my eternal salvation has does not depend on my desire or effort, but on God. Schreiner and Caneday tell me it does depend on my "ardent" effort - who should I believe? I'll will take the Apostle Paul's Word on it.

Originally posted by russell55:
But all over scripture is the idea that our assurance of salvation comes from seeing the workmanship of God in our life. How do we know we have eternal life? We ask ourselves: Do we walk in the light? Do we keep His commandments? Do we love our brothers and sisters? Do we not love the world? Do we practice righteousness? Do we love God?

I agree and I disagree at the same time. Let me explain. I agree that my righteous living can offer me great assurance of my salvation. But that is not always there - there are ups and downs in every Christians life - so if my righteous living was my only assurance of salvation than I would sure think I am not saved a lot!

I agree with you that truly regenerated person cannot sin with impunity. In other words I cannot sin without the Holy Spirit prodding me about it. Having said that, I can "grieve" the Holy Spririt and resist his prodding.

I have always said that one of the ways I can tell that a person is a Christian, even if they don't go to church and live a righteous life- is that they are miserable in their sin. They know better and they know they should be doing what God has called them to do.

Now I am careful though to qualify that by saying "righteous living" is broad term. Some people say they don't understand how someone can be a Christian and go to Movies or listen to CCM music. So you can take that to an extreme.

Originally posted by russell55:
I don't think that part of Romans 7 refers to someone who has been regenerated and freed from sin and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

You are taking the same position on Romans 7 that the Charismatic and Holyiness churches take.(My mom attended one for a while so I know it was preached on all the time that Roman's 7 was pre-conversion).

The problem with that view is that Paul is speaking in the present tense:

Romans 7:18-25
"18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Many theologians who were of the Holiness movements have dismissed Romans chapter 7 as pre-salvation because they believe the accept it as face value is to make people feel comfortable in their sin.

That is not what Paul is saying. He speaks two natures - that of the Spirit and that of the Flesh. Before we are saved we cannot resist our sinful nature - there is nothing to combat it with. After we are saved we now have a "war" going in us - the new Spirit nature verse the Old flesh. Paul makes it clear that there will be battles won and lost between these two natures while we are in the flesh.

The difference is after we are saved - we have the chance to win finally! But that does not mean we will win every battle. In fact we will lose many as Paul states "For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am!" - Paul says all this in the present tense. We cannot deny this.

When I am saved in and indwelled with the Holy Spirit I am given the tools to know right and wrong and live righteously. But I must choose to listen and obey the prodding of the Spirit.

Originally posted by russell55:
(And where does it say we wait for it patiently? We wait for it eagerly, groaning within ourselves....sound a bit like impatience to me. )

In verse 25 of Romans chapter 10 Paul says:

Romans 10:24-25(NIV)
"24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."


IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
It isn't about doing good works to get justified.

God uses good works (those works done by faith as one who is already justified) to accomplish sanctification (this is known as being saved). You are not totally saved from sin in its ultimate way until you totally stop sinning. This happens at glorification. Thus, you are saved, being saved, and you will be saved.

Sanctification is guaranteed. If I understand your posts IFB, you believe that justification happens but sanctification might not. How do you see this lining up with the N.T.?

Daniel,

I think you have hit the nail on the head!

The difference between your position and mine is this:

Justfication(eternal salvation) Guarenteed(We agree here I think)

Progressive Sanctifaction - not guarenteed - I believe we can resist the prodding of the Spirit and in essense "grieve" the Spirit(and make ourselves miserable) here.

Ephesians 4:30(NIV)
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

The very fact that Paul exhorts us not to grieve the Holy Spirit proves that we as those "sealed" with Holy Spirit can do just that.

Glorfication- we both agree this is guarenteed.

You asked how my thought that sanctifacation is not guarenteed lines up with the N.T. here again is the evidence:

I Corinthians 3:11-15(NIV)

"11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

I can choose to obey the prodding of the Holy Spirit(in sanctifacation) and I will receive rewards for it if I do. But if I don't, and I choose to waste my life and not invest my life in God's work then I will suffer loss(of rewards) but I will still be saved.

The reason that the "mean of salvation" and other similar theological ideas have grown up over the centuries is to motivate people to Godly living(a nobel task).

An those who teach that one may choose to waste his life after he receives Christ are accused of teaching "easy believeism".

The fact is that while I wish Christians would be more dedicated and please the Lord more with their lives I cannot use fear as the motivator. We are compelled by "love of Christ" and not fear of loosing our salvation when it comes to how we live after conversion.

I have always said that the most miserable person in the world is not the unbeliever wallowing in his sin, it is the believer who is not walking as God would have him - yet he is still saved(so as by fire).

I have said it before and I will state it again:

If a person professed faith in Christ but
does not pursue a righteous life after that here is how it is explain by the various schools of thought:

Means of Salvation and Lordship Salvation Views:
The person was never saved.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Salvation View(Arminian, Holiness, Charismatic):
The person was saved and lost their salvation.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Rewards(Eternal Security)View:
The person may still be saved and they
have chosen to reject the prodding of the
Holy Spirit and waste their life. They loose
the rewards they could have had.
END RESULT:The person goes to heaven

Do you not see that you have the same end result as the Arminian(loss of Salvation) view, you just explain it differently?

IFBReformer

[ April 11, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
Do you not see that you have the same end result as the Arminian(loss of Salvation) view, you just explain it differently?

I see that the end result is the same. We look at the beginning differently.

Remember, just because people arrive at the same destination, doesn't mean they took the same route.

All who do not persevere in the faith prove they never had it.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
All who do not persevere in the faith prove they never had it.

Daniel,

You are two inches away from saying exactly what you think. I think this what you are saying:

All who do not persevere in the faith(grow more and more righteous each day or progressive sanctifacation)prove they never had it.

Feel free to correct what I have in parentheses but you need to define what you mean by "persevere".

Here is how I would say it:

All who do not persevere in the faith(continue to trust in Christ for their salvation)prove they never had it.

You see this where I disagree with some in the eternal security camp - is the ones that say someone could become an unbeliever but still be saved. Trusting in Christ for my eternal salvation is core of my salvation.

IFBReformer

[ April 11, 2003, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

[russell55]

Looking at it now I don't see anything wrong with your statement that "we are exhorted to cooperate in" our sanctifaction.
If you had said "we must cooperate in our sanctifaction in order to inherit eternal life" than I would have big problem with that.

What I would say is that those who are inheriting eternal live (who are sons of God) will cooperate in their sanctification. If they don't cooperate simply because they are exhorted to, then they will eventually cooperate because they are chastened until they do.

God chastens all his true sons, and that chastening results in righteousness. (See Hebrews 12). If you don't receive the chastening that results in obedience, then you are not a true son, but an illegitimate one.

I have never read the two guys you quote, so I don't really feel I can comment on what they say. To defend what they say I would have to read their quotes in context.

The scriptures tell me my eternal salvation has does not depend on my desire or effort, but on God.

Exactly. Your salvation does not depend on your effort but on God's mercy. But God, in His mercy, works obedience in His sons through many means--the inner work of the Holy Spirit, God's chastening, the exhortations to righteousness, to list some--and He keeps on working until He produces righteousness.

He works, and so we work; but we do really work.....

(I recognize that there is a tautology here.)

You are taking the same position on Romans 7 that the Charismatic and Holyiness churches take

Not really.....but I don't have time for a discussion of my view of Romans 7 right now. Let me just quickly say that whoever it is in Romans 7, he is "under bondage to sin." If this is a regenerate person who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him, then it would be the only place Paul ever uses "under sin" to refer to someone who is regenerate, and it would seem to me to directly contradict to other statements he makes about us being free from bondage to sin and under the dominion of Christ.

When I am saved in and indwelled with the Holy Spirit I am given the tools to know right and wrong and live righteously. But I must choose to listen and obey the prodding of the Spirit.

Yes, and if you are truly a son, God will work at it until you choose to listan and obey the prodding of the Spirit.

n verse 25 of Romans chapter 10 Paul says:
Romans 10:24-25(NIV)
"24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."

My NASB translates that "wait eagerly" there and throughout the passage. But it's really neither here nor there to the discussion...

 

[russell55]

Here is how I would say it:
All who do not persevere in the faith(continue to trust in Christ for their salvation)prove they never had it.

And those who continue to trust in Christ continue and grow in their love for Him. And those who love Him are obedient to Him.

Growing obedience is proof of the enduring faith--the enduring love for and trust in Christ. And no obedience is proof of no faith, no trust and no love.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this that He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then brethren, stand firm....

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by russell55:
And those who continue to trust in Christ continue and grow in their love for Him. And those who love Him are obedient to Him.

Growing obedience is proof of the enduring faith--the enduring love for and trust in Christ. And no obedience is proof of no faith, no trust and no love.

How do you reconcile your statement "And no obedience is proof of no faith" with 2 Thessalonians 3:13-15(NIV):

"13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right.
14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother."

Here Paul tells us not to regard the disobedient professing Christian as an enemy, but as a brother. We warn him as a brother. Does this not seem to contradict your "no obedience is proof of no faith" theory?

And I still have not heard your explanation of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15?

As to the passage your quoted:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15(NIV)
"13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

When the Apostle Paul says God "God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit" - the phrase "sanctifying work" literally means "setting apart work". Sanctification means in its most literal sense "to set apart". Now while many read into that "to make righteous" - I do not.

We are literally set apart(from the unbelieving world) and regenerated so we can accept Christ and then we are saved through belief. That is what the passage says.

I look forward to your responses.

IFBReformer

 

[Daniel David]

Consider Romans 2:6-10.

It specifically says that those who do good works "will be justified".