Perseverance of the Saints

How do you reconcile your idea that God does not pass anyone who is not an "honor student"(does his will,lives a righteous and holy life, does good works) with I Corinthians 3:11-14(NIV)?

"11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."


Or how about Romans 9:14-16(NIV)?

"14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

The "means of salvation" bunch seem to say something directly contrary to scripture like you said in a previous post "The salvation worked out here is the result of God's continuing inner work in the life of the believer. It is something that is happening and continues throughout our lifetime, and something we are exhorted to cooperate in."

So we need exercise "ardent effort" as I have read in other "mean of salvation" papers and as you say we need to "cooperate in" God's inner work so we can finally be saved right?

The scriptures tell me it "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

You are said:"Salvation means we are delivered from God's wrath, but we are delived from God's wrath by also being delivered from the rule of sin. Even though in a real way we have already received salvation, there is a "not yet" aspect to it as well:"

Paul tells me in Romans 8:1(NIV) that "...there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," - this questions your "not yet" idea.

Romans 8:22-25(NIV)
"22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."

We wait for "the redemption of our bodies" -our glorified sinless bodies - "For in this hope we WERE SAVED"(not are being saved, or will be saved). And as the Apostle Paul states "Who hopes for what he already has?" Are we or will we ever be sinless in this life? Of course not.

This is the problem with the whole idea that if a person is truly saved he will do good works, because then you have to ask yourself, how much good works does he have to do to be consider truly saved?

That my friend is the $10,000,000 question.

Consider Paul's words on our sinful nature in
Romans 7:21-25(NIV)
"21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Christ will one day "rescue me from this body of death" but until then I will still be a sinner no matter how much I do not want to be and I will "wait for it patiently" as the Apostle Paul tells me.

Looking forward to your reply,

IFBReformer

 

russell55,

Just so you don't miss it I want to reiterate the big question for you, if someone must do good works after salvation how much is enough? How do we know if someone is truly saved - if they only go to church once a month than they are not? If they read their Bible twice a week instead of every day they are not?

How righteous do they have to be?

(I am getting a feeling like I have said things like this before to people I have witnessed to -oh now I remember now - they were Catholic!)

IFBReformer

 

Looking at it now I don't see anything wrong with your statement that "we are exhorted to cooperate in" our sanctifaction.

If you had said "we must cooperate in our sanctifaction in order to inherit eternal life" than I would have big problem with that.

But I do have problems with statements like Schreiner and Caneday's:

If the "prize" was not our eternal salvation but rewards(as I believe the New Testament teaches) there would be no problem with their statement.

But since Schreiner and Caneday believe the "prize" is eternal salvation there is a huge problem here.

So if we simply subsitute what they say the prize is - eternal life and salvation lets see how good their statements sound:

Romans 9:14-16(NIV)
"14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

The scriptures tell me my eternal salvation has does not depend on my desire or effort, but on God. Schreiner and Caneday tell me it does depend on my "ardent" effort - who should I believe? I'll will take the Apostle Paul's Word on it.

I agree and I disagree at the same time. Let me explain. I agree that my righteous living can offer me great assurance of my salvation. But that is not always there - there are ups and downs in every Christians life - so if my righteous living was my only assurance of salvation than I would sure think I am not saved a lot!

I agree with you that truly regenerated person cannot sin with impunity. In other words I cannot sin without the Holy Spirit prodding me about it. Having said that, I can "grieve" the Holy Spririt and resist his prodding.

I have always said that one of the ways I can tell that a person is a Christian, even if they don't go to church and live a righteous life- is that they are miserable in their sin. They know better and they know they should be doing what God has called them to do.

Now I am careful though to qualify that by saying "righteous living" is broad term. Some people say they don't understand how someone can be a Christian and go to Movies or listen to CCM music. So you can take that to an extreme.

You are taking the same position on Romans 7 that the Charismatic and Holyiness churches take.(My mom attended one for a while so I know it was preached on all the time that Roman's 7 was pre-conversion).

The problem with that view is that Paul is speaking in the present tense:

Romans 7:18-25
"18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Many theologians who were of the Holiness movements have dismissed Romans chapter 7 as pre-salvation because they believe the accept it as face value is to make people feel comfortable in their sin.

That is not what Paul is saying. He speaks two natures - that of the Spirit and that of the Flesh. Before we are saved we cannot resist our sinful nature - there is nothing to combat it with. After we are saved we now have a "war" going in us - the new Spirit nature verse the Old flesh. Paul makes it clear that there will be battles won and lost between these two natures while we are in the flesh.

The difference is after we are saved - we have the chance to win finally! But that does not mean we will win every battle. In fact we will lose many as Paul states "For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am!" - Paul says all this in the present tense. We cannot deny this.

When I am saved in and indwelled with the Holy Spirit I am given the tools to know right and wrong and live righteously. But I must choose to listen and obey the prodding of the Spirit.

In verse 25 of Romans chapter 10 Paul says:

Romans 10:24-25(NIV)
"24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."


IFBReformer

 

Daniel,

I think you have hit the nail on the head!

The difference between your position and mine is this:

Justfication(eternal salvation) Guarenteed(We agree here I think)

Progressive Sanctifaction - not guarenteed - I believe we can resist the prodding of the Spirit and in essense "grieve" the Spirit(and make ourselves miserable) here.

Ephesians 4:30(NIV)
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

The very fact that Paul exhorts us not to grieve the Holy Spirit proves that we as those "sealed" with Holy Spirit can do just that.

Glorfication- we both agree this is guarenteed.

You asked how my thought that sanctifacation is not guarenteed lines up with the N.T. here again is the evidence:

I Corinthians 3:11-15(NIV)

"11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

I can choose to obey the prodding of the Holy Spirit(in sanctifacation) and I will receive rewards for it if I do. But if I don't, and I choose to waste my life and not invest my life in God's work then I will suffer loss(of rewards) but I will still be saved.

The reason that the "mean of salvation" and other similar theological ideas have grown up over the centuries is to motivate people to Godly living(a nobel task).

An those who teach that one may choose to waste his life after he receives Christ are accused of teaching "easy believeism".

The fact is that while I wish Christians would be more dedicated and please the Lord more with their lives I cannot use fear as the motivator. We are compelled by "love of Christ" and not fear of loosing our salvation when it comes to how we live after conversion.

I have always said that the most miserable person in the world is not the unbeliever wallowing in his sin, it is the believer who is not walking as God would have him - yet he is still saved(so as by fire).

I have said it before and I will state it again:

If a person professed faith in Christ but
does not pursue a righteous life after that here is how it is explain by the various schools of thought:

Means of Salvation and Lordship Salvation Views:
The person was never saved.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Salvation View(Arminian, Holiness, Charismatic):
The person was saved and lost their salvation.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Rewards(Eternal Security)View:
The person may still be saved and they
have chosen to reject the prodding of the
Holy Spirit and waste their life. They loose
the rewards they could have had.
END RESULT:The person goes to heaven

Do you not see that you have the same end result as the Arminian(loss of Salvation) view, you just explain it differently?

IFBReformer

[ April 11, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

Daniel,

You are two inches away from saying exactly what you think. I think this what you are saying:

All who do not persevere in the faith(grow more and more righteous each day or progressive sanctifacation)prove they never had it.

Feel free to correct what I have in parentheses but you need to define what you mean by "persevere".

Here is how I would say it:

All who do not persevere in the faith(continue to trust in Christ for their salvation)prove they never had it.

You see this where I disagree with some in the eternal security camp - is the ones that say someone could become an unbeliever but still be saved. Trusting in Christ for my eternal salvation is core of my salvation.

IFBReformer

[ April 11, 2003, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

How do you reconcile your statement "And no obedience is proof of no faith" with 2 Thessalonians 3:13-15(NIV):

"13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right.
14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother."

Here Paul tells us not to regard the disobedient professing Christian as an enemy, but as a brother. We warn him as a brother. Does this not seem to contradict your "no obedience is proof of no faith" theory?

And I still have not heard your explanation of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15?

As to the passage your quoted:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15(NIV)
"13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

When the Apostle Paul says God "God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit" - the phrase "sanctifying work" literally means "setting apart work". Sanctification means in its most literal sense "to set apart". Now while many read into that "to make righteous" - I do not.

We are literally set apart(from the unbelieving world) and regenerated so we can accept Christ and then we are saved through belief. That is what the passage says.

I look forward to your responses.

IFBReformer