Perseverence of the Saints

[J.D.]

Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no {firm} root in himself, but is {only} temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.



I agree with you that the person who temporarily believes was not saved. We do not fall from grace or lose our salvation.
Some do believe one can stop believing. Remember the ME debates?



I don't think anyone has said that one must persevere "rather than" be preserved. We persevere because God preserves us. I think that is what has been said repeatedly.

Thank you Amy for a perfect answer in my stead!

 

[psalms109:31]

Lead to destruction

My concern is not for me but for others.

This way of thinking lot of people being lead to thier own destruction.

Jesus will be with us to the bitter end, but if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

 

[Allan]

My point was to show that one can respond to the seed of truth with joy, but fall away before salvation takes place. They "belielve" it, but not with saving faith.

I have small problem here though.

1. What do you mean by 'respond' to the seed of truth?
...a. to believe the truth
...b. to acknowledge the truth

Remember, the scripture says NOTHING about them 'believing' the truth but that it only states they responded to it by 'receiving it' or taking it to themselves. This can only be in one of two things: 1. a mental assent or 2. taking it to the heart - belief/faith.

Also, remember that belief and faith are the same word only distinquished as being either in the noun or verb form. So, to believe IS TO HAVE faith.

Again, not once does scripture state in this parable that they 'believed' but only that they recieved what was given them. Again, but not that they believed it.

They might have received it (acknowledged it was truth) with joy but they still had no root in them (believed that truth). And so when their works show a form of godliness, and the trials come, it will be revealed for what it was from the beginning. That of no faith but mearly an acknowledgement of the truth and so there was no power (no root) to sustain them as their own strength can not maintain in the trials.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I agree with you that the person who temporarily believes was not saved. We do not fall from grace or lose our salvation.

The Bible only presents believer or non believers. "Temporary believers"???? No such thing.

The Bible is explicit, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

If they believed they are saved. There is no such thing as losing salvation but to you, apparently, you believe there is which is exactly what "Temporary Believes" is.

When one believes the Gospel, they are saved. There is NO SUCH thing as a temporary believer unless you believe one can lose salvation.

 

[Amy.G]

The Bible only presents believer or non believers. "Temporary believers"???? No such thing.

The Bible is explicit, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

If they believed they are saved. There is no such thing as losing salvation but to you, apparently, you believe there is which is exactly what "Temporary Believes" is.

When one believes the Gospel, they are saved. There is NO SUCH thing as a temporary believer unless you believe one can lose salvation.

What does it mean to receive the word with joy?

Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no {firm} root in himself, but is {only} temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

He received the word with joy, but it didn't take root, so he fell away. He was not saved. He did not fall from grace. But he must have believed something in order to receive the word (truth) with joy.

How do you interpret it?

 

[Allan]

What does it mean to receive the word with joy?

Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no {firm} root in himself, but is {only} temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

He received the word with joy, but it didn't take root, so he fell away. He was not saved. He did not fall from grace. But he must have believed something in order to receive the word (truth) with joy.

How do you interpret it?

Look back 2 posts (post #23) and you will see.

And as Alex states, this is about the Gospel which is important to remember.

 

[Amy.G]

Look back 2 posts (post #23) and you will see.

Thanks Allan. I would like to get Alex's opinion on it too though, since he was in disagreement with me.

 

[Allan]

Thanks Allan. I would like to get Alex's opinion on it too though, since he was in disagreement with me.

No problem. Just to remind you though, I to had a small problem with your take that they 'believed'.

 

[Amy.G]

I have small problem here though.

1. What do you mean by 'respond' to the seed of truth?
...a. to believe the truth
...b. to acknowledge the truth

Remember, the scripture says NOTHING about them 'believing' the truth but that it only states they responded to it by 'receiving it' or taking it to themselves. This can only be in one of two things: 1. a mental assent or 2. taking it to the heart - belief/faith.

Here you say that the scripture says nothing about them believing and in the next sentence you say it can mean belief/faith. Which is it? And what is mental assent?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

What does it mean to receive the word with joy?

Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no {firm} root in himself, but is {only} temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

He received the word with joy, but it didn't take root, so he fell away. He was not saved. He did not fall from grace. But he must have believed something in order to receive the word (truth) with joy.

How do you interpret it?

You only have two choices if you believe one cannot lose their salvation.

Either it means to believe the gospel or it describes believing something else.

To receive with joy is a metaphor for believing.

Because Calvinism's grid presents an irreconcilable problem here, the Calvinist is forced to contend that this man "temporarily believed". There is no such thing. Or that they lightly believed or that they were enlightened (which to the Calvinist in the gospel setting requires regeneration) but did not believe. All roads lead to a problem the Calvinist cannot reconcile.

This simply describes an unfruitful believer.
Luke 8 explains:

12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Look at verse 12, it describes those that have had the devil take the word out of their hearts lest they believe and be saved. That is the ones by the way side.

Then look at 13 and 14 these are unfruitful believers. Most notably is verse 14 that says they bring no fruit to perfection. Both 13 and 14 treat these are believers and it is only in verse 12 were they are viewed as those that are NOT saved. Verse 13 and 14 treat them as believers who do not produce fruit as the one in 15.

This is a direct challenge to the argument of perseverance by Calvinists.

 

[Allan]

Here you say that the scripture says nothing about them believing and in the next sentence you say it can mean belief/faith. Which is it? And what is mental assent?

The word 'recieved' can mean one of two things with regard to context.

Mental assent - acknowledgment of a truth without action/commitment to it.
To Believe - acknowledgment of a truth with you acting/commiting on/to that truth.

Since the context here is that they did not maintain in trials because they had no root which necessitates (IMO) they merely gave a mental assent (head knowledge) but never acted in belief toward the gospel truth given them. Why? Because IF they believed it, they would have depended on it, and there would be a root which would give them at the very least an establishment or permenence in their faith. But since they depended on themselves, they merely acknowledged it was truth while never yeilding to that truth.

Thus: no root, no power, no faith.

 

[Amy.G]

The word 'recieved' can mean one of two things with regard to context.

Mental assent - acknowledgment of a truth without action/commitment to it.
To Believe - acknowledgment of a truth with you acting/commiting on/to that truth.

Since the context here is that they did not maintain in trials because they had no root which necessitates (IMO) they merely gave a mental assent (head knowledge) but never acted in belief toward the gospel truth given them. Why? Because IF they believed it, they would have depended on it, and there would be a root which would give them at the very least an establishment or permenence in their faith. But since they depended on themselves, they merely acknowledged it was truth while never yeilding to that truth.

Thus: no root, no power, no faith.

Thanks. That makes sense. I did a poor job of explaining it. This is what I meant when I said they "received" the word. It was head knowledge. It was not saving faith.

 

[Amy.G]

You only have two choices if you believe one cannot lose their salvation.

Either it means to believe the gospel or it describes believing something else.

To receive with joy is a metaphor for believing.

Because Calvinism's grid presents an irreconcilable problem here, the Calvinist is forced to contend that this man "temporarily believed". There is no such thing. Or that they lightly believed or that they were enlightened (which to the Calvinist in the gospel setting requires regeneration) but did not believe. All roads lead to a problem the Calvinist cannot reconcile.

This simply describes an unfruitful believer.
Luke 8 explains:

{Quote]12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Look at verse 12, it describes those that have had the devil take the word out of their hearts lest they believe and be saved. That is the ones by the way side.

Then look at 13 and 14 these are unfruitful believers. Most notably is verse 14 that says they bring no fruit to perfection. Both 13 and 14 treat these are believers and it is only in verse 12 were they are viewed as those that are NOT saved. Verse 13 and 14 treat them as believers who do not produce fruit as the one in 15.

This is a direct challenge to the argument of perseverance by Calvinists.

[/QUOTE]This is not a challenge to perseverance. Jesus keep those who are His. He preserves us, therefore we persevere. We do not lose our salvation.

Allan did a better job of explaining it than I did.


Do you believe one can lose their salvation?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

This is not a challenge to perseverance. Jesus keep those who are His. He preserves us, therefore we persevere. We do not lose our salvation.

Allan did a better job of explaining it than I did.


Do you believe one can lose their salvation?[/QUOTE]
No I don't. Secondly, and again the CONTEXT clearly presents only ONE of the four as those that did not believe and be saved. Two are treated as believers who are not fruitful and one is treated as a fruitful believer.

You only have two choices if you believe one cannot lose their salvation.

Either it means to believe the gospel or it describes believing something else.

To receive with joy is a metaphor for believing.

Because Calvinism's grid presents an irreconcilable problem here, the Calvinist is forced to contend that this man "temporarily believed". There is no such thing. Or that they lightly believed or that they were enlightened (which to the Calvinist in the gospel setting requires regeneration) but did not believe. All roads lead to a problem the Calvinist cannot reconcile.

This simply describes an unfruitful believer.
Luke 8 explains:

12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Look at verse 12, it describes those that have had the devil take the word out of their hearts lest they believe and be saved. That is the ones by the way side.

Then look at 13 and 14 these are unfruitful believers. Most notably is verse 14 that says they bring no fruit to perfection. Both 13 and 14 treat these are believers and it is only in verse 12 were they are viewed as those that are NOT saved. Verse 13 and 14 treat them as believers who do not produce fruit as the one in 15.

This is a direct challenge to the argument of perseverance by Calvinists.

 

[J.D.]

Then look at 13 and 14 these are unfruitful believers. Most notably is verse 14 that says they bring no fruit to perfection. Both 13 and 14 treat these are believers and it is only in verse 12 were they are viewed as those that are NOT saved. Verse 13 and 14 treat them as believers who do not produce fruit as the one in 15.

This is a direct challenge to the argument of perseverance by Calvinists.

And those in verse 15 that have an "honest and good heart", to whom do they owe the posession of these qualities? Themselves?

 

[Amy.G]

Because Calvinism's grid presents an irreconcilable problem here, the Calvinist is forced to contend that this man "temporarily believed". There is no such thing. Or that they lightly believed or that they were enlightened (which to the Calvinist in the gospel setting requires regeneration) but did not believe. All roads lead to a problem the Calvinist cannot reconcile.

From your scripture quote:

13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

What does it mean "for a while believe"?

Why do you say there's no such thing?

 

[J.D.]

From your scripture quote:


What does it mean "for a while believe"?

Why do you say there's no such thing?

It's hard to get any thing past Amy.

Looks like John Gill had it right. I think I'll stop using "professed believers" and start using the biblically correct term - "temporary believers".

 

[Isaiah40:28]

What does it mean "for a while believe"?

Why do you say there's no such thing?

Excellent question.

 

[TCGreek]

1. The original question that spured the OP had to do with the proper understanding of the reformed doctrine of perseverence. It was not a question of scripture. We can post the supporting verses if needed. The confession provides some scriptures proofs.

2. I prefer not to that God is both a judge and a father of believers but rather is a father the judges (chastines) His children.

3. Amen! Good teaching will separate and then connect the two aspects.

4. It's good to walk together in agreement!

Thanks for the clarification. :thumbs: Good stuff, BTW.

 

[webdog]

From your scripture quote:


What does it mean "for a while believe"?

Why do you say there's no such thing?

While believe and faith can mean the same thing in some instances, I don't believe they always do, this being one example.

For instance, I can stand at the edge of a window in a burning building, and while looking down see many firemen holding a tarp to catch me so that I may jump and not perish. I can believe they know what they are doing, that the tarp is strong enough to catch me, that the law of physics in regards to how high off the ground I am points to a safe landing, but unless I actually have faith and jump, this belief alone is futile.

I believe faith is belief in action. These who "believed for a while" only had head knowledge, as Allan pointed out earlier. They never had faith in the truth.

BTW, how can a corpse "believe for a while"? I thought dead was dead :laugh: