Personal Committment to Iraq War

Don't forget what Clinton's real claim to fame will always be.

Clinton supported the UN over the constitution of the USA.

And when a soldier acknowledged Clinton's failure, Michael New went to jail.

 

Sorry. Pure fantasy. Let's try to stay in reality.

 

Originally Posted by The Galatian
So, if you offered the troops in Iraq the chance to serve in Bosnia instead, what do you think they'd do?

(and a little question-dodging...)

Higher rates, um? That's why they are telling soldiers that they have to stay past their contractual separation date? Clinton never had to do that. Do you suppose it's because Clinton raised their pay, while Bush tried to cut their combat pay? Do you think the fact that Clinton never mired them in a no-win war has something to do with it? The fact is, we have had to force people to stay, when they want out, for the first time since the Vietnam war. Recruiters aren't hitting their goals, in spite of a new study that shows that they may be breaking the law in their attempts to gain recruits.


Originally Posted by The Galatian
Since Bush has refused to let the troops in Bosnia come home...

So carpro's stuff was false? Imagine that.


Originally Posted by The Galatian
Bush depises men and women willing to die for their country.

They had a great deal of animosity. Almost had a fist fight, according to a family friend. And of course, His father disagrees on the course he's taken in Iraq.


Originally Posted by The Galatian
Pure fantasy on your part...The stated objective was to overthrough the dictator, and restore a democratically-elected leader to power.

That wasn't what the military was supposed to do. We're talking about the use of the military, not foreign aid. The invasion had two objectives, both of which were accomplished, and they then withdrew. If you can't see why this was better than the war Bush dragged us into, I don't know what evidence woiuld mean anything to you.


Originally Posted by The Galatian
...Clinton kept him on the run. Clinton bombed his facilities in Sudan.

Osama and his allies said it was. But it went up like a bomb when a cruise missile hit it. Perhaps Osama had invented explosive aspirin? :laugh: Shortly afterward, as Clinton was trying to pressure Sudan into extraditing him, Osama fled Africa. And he stayed on the run, until Bush took the pressure off.

Actually, Clinton let the generals run the military. And not surprisingly, things went very well. Bush let a pack of draft-dodgers run it, and not surprisingly, we have had to force people to stay in, we are mired in a no-win war, and numerous retired generals have called for the ouster of his incompetent Sec. of Defense.

 

Try to stay focused, Gal.

I haven't mentioned Bosnia.

 

"U.S. Troops Re-Enlist in Record Numbers

April 14, 2006: In the last six months, the U.S. Army is seeing 15 percent more soldiers re-enlist than expected. This continues a trend that began in 2001. Every year since then, the rate at which existing soldiers have re-enlisted has increased. This despite the fact that 69 percent of the troops killed in Iraq have been from the army. New recruits continue to exceed join up at higher rates as well...."

http://www.kgoam810.com/viewentry.asp?ID=347252&PT=PERSONALITIES

They have had to recall some Marine specialties because...there is a war on.

"Vials of medicine and other evidence of civilian pharmaceutical manufacture were visible in photographs of the first day's debris. The German ambassador to Sudan, Werner Daum, sent a sarcastic cable to Bonn saying that he knew this all along. The British engineer who built the plant, Tom Carnaffin, attested that the plant had no space for the off-the-record experimental work. Other engineers and architects pointed out that the factory had no air-sealed doors, essential if poison gas is to be on the menu. The Sudanese government called loudly for an international inspection, which the Clinton administration -- once so confident -- declined to endorse. By the first week in September, Defense Secretary William Cohen admitted that he "should have known" that Al-Shifa made medical and agricultural products."


-Salon Magazine, Sep 1998

Rumsfeld was a draft-dodger? I don't think so.

That's pretty good, considering Clinton was a draft-dodger himself.

You are right, the military did exactly what Clinton asked of them. The failure was his.

You may have the last word Galatian.

 

Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

SPC Michael New stood for what you do not have the courage to do - he went to jail for your freedom . . .

Maybe you should come back to reality.

 

Fight Here or Fight There?
King George has said: Fight the war on terror there or fight the war on terror here.

I say fight it here. At least the number of military deaths attributed to ambushes and suicide bombers will be a fraction of what they are there.

138,000 troops in Iraq.

Monthly Cost of the War In Iraq? 8 billion dollars
Cost to build a barrier wall across the US/Mexico border? 8 billion dollars.

2600 have died. That makes rounded down value of 2 soldiers a day die since the evasion.

Currently a minimum of 40,671 civilians have died in Iraq with a possible 45,227 have died. Using the lower number that rounded down is 33 civilians a day die. Is that acceptable?

Brings the troops home. Put Americans to work building this barrier.

Let's save some lives. Let's save some money.

How many people do you need to watch the border if you place 2 persons at 1 mile intervals around the clock?

1951 times 6 people = 11,706.

Bases on the average annual salary 40,000 a year yields a 40 million a month payout compared to the 8 billion a month we are paying out now a month in Iraq.

You do the math. It makes a lot more common sense to defend from home then from overseas.

 

Originally Posted by The Galatian
Higher rates, um? That's why they are telling soldiers that they have to stay past their contractual separation date? Clinton never had to do that.... Recruiters aren't hitting their goals, in spite of a new study that shows that they may be breaking the law in their attempts to gain recruits.

"U.S. Troops Re-Enlist in Record Numbers

Let's get a bit of reality in here...

December 29, 2003
The three are among thousands of soldiers forbidden to leave military service under the Army's "stop-loss" orders, intended to stanch the seepage of troops, through retirement and discharge, from a military stretched thin by its burgeoning overseas missions...To the Pentagon, stop-loss orders are a finger in the dike -- a tool to halt the hemorrhage of personnel, and maximize cohesion and experience, for units in the field in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Through a series of stop-loss orders, the Army alone has blocked the possible retirements and departures of more than 40,000 soldiers, about 16,000 of them National Guard and reserve members who were eligible to leave the service this year. Hundreds more in the Air Force, Navy and Marines were briefly blocked from retiring or departing the military at some point this year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36979-2003Dec28?language=printer

Of course, Clinton never had that problem. But then Clinton never tried to cut the combat pay of the troops, or sent them into an endless no-win war, which gave huge profits to his benefactors, and huge debt to Americans.

(on Osama's "Aspirin Factory")
"Vials of medicine and other evidence of civilian pharmaceutical manufacture were visible in photographs of the first day's debris. The German ambassador to Sudan, Werner Daum, sent a sarcastic cable to Bonn saying that he knew this all along. The British engineer who built the plant, Tom Carnaffin, attested that the plant had no space for the off-the-record experimental work. Other engineers and architects pointed out that the factory had no air-sealed doors, essential if poison gas is to be on the menu.

Poison gas doesn't blow up like that plant did, either. Whatever was in there was not acetylsalicylic acid.

That the plant was manufacturing medicine wasn't at issue. It was what else was there.

Yep. Rummy had an educational derferment,and when that wasn't going to work anymore, joined ROTC.

Clinton did join ROTC for a while, but then he resigned and notified his draft board. Not as honorable as it could have been, but better than Rummy's years-long hideout. Rumsfeld was willing to serve, BTW, when all the shooting stopped. Neocon all the way.

Originally Posted by The Galatian
That wasn't what the military was supposed to do. We're talking about the use of the military, not foreign aid. The invasion had two objectives, both of which were accomplished, and they then withdrew. If you can't see why this was better than the war Bush dragged us into, I don't know what evidence woiuld mean anything to you.

Which was:
1. Overthrow the dictatorship.
2. Restore the elected government.

They succeeded quickly, and with the objectives met, withdrew.

Only a neocon could define a successful mission as a failure.

Actually, you would have been better advised to bail out somewhat earlier, before all this went on the table.

 

Originally Posted by The Galatian
Higher rates, um? That's why they are telling soldiers that they have to stay past their contractual separation date? Clinton never had to do that.... Recruiters aren't hitting their goals, in spite of a new study that shows that they may be breaking the law in their attempts to gain recruits.

"U.S. Troops Re-Enlist in Record Numbers

Let's get a bit of reality in here...

December 29, 2003
The three are among thousands of soldiers forbidden to leave military service under the Army's "stop-loss" orders, intended to stanch the seepage of troops, through retirement and discharge, from a military stretched thin by its burgeoning overseas missions...To the Pentagon, stop-loss orders are a finger in the dike -- a tool to halt the hemorrhage of personnel, and maximize cohesion and experience, for units in the field in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Through a series of stop-loss orders, the Army alone has blocked the possible retirements and departures of more than 40,000 soldiers, about 16,000 of them National Guard and reserve members who were eligible to leave the service this year. Hundreds more in the Air Force, Navy and Marines were briefly blocked from retiring or departing the military at some point this year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36979-2003Dec28?language=printer

Of course, Clinton never had that problem. But then Clinton never tried to cut the combat pay of the troops, or sent them into an endless no-win war, which gave huge profits to his benefactors, and huge debt to Americans.

(on Osama's "Aspirin Factory")
"Vials of medicine and other evidence of civilian pharmaceutical manufacture were visible in photographs of the first day's debris. The German ambassador to Sudan, Werner Daum, sent a sarcastic cable to Bonn saying that he knew this all along. The British engineer who built the plant, Tom Carnaffin, attested that the plant had no space for the off-the-record experimental work. Other engineers and architects pointed out that the factory had no air-sealed doors, essential if poison gas is to be on the menu.

Poison gas doesn't blow up like that plant did, either. Whatever was in there was not acetylsalicylic acid.

That the plant was manufacturing medicine wasn't at issue. It was what else was there.

Yep. Rummy had an educational derferment,and when that wasn't going to work anymore, joined ROTC.

Clinton did join ROTC for a while, but then he resigned and notified his draft board. Not as honorable as it could have been, but better than Rummy's years-long hideout. Rumsfeld was willing to serve, BTW, when all the shooting stopped. Neocon all the way.

Originally Posted by The Galatian
That wasn't what the military was supposed to do. We're talking about the use of the military, not foreign aid. The invasion had two objectives, both of which were accomplished, and they then withdrew. If you can't see why this was better than the war Bush dragged us into, I don't know what evidence woiuld mean anything to you.

Which was:
1. Overthrow the dictatorship.
2. Restore the elected government.

They succeeded quickly, and with the objectives met, withdrew.

Only a neocon could define a successful mission as a failure.

Actually, you would have been better advised to bail out somewhat earlier, before all this went on the table.

 

Just for your information, since you have a bad habit of twisting the truth and this is one of your most blatant efforts.

#1 An educational deferment was totally legal and outside the bounds of what one could reasonably consider draft dodging.

#2 Clinton received a number of educational deferments as did Rumsfeld and Kerry and Cheney and any number of other notable politicians educated in the sixties and early seventies.

To suggest that Rumsfeld's deferments were somehow less honorable than Clinton's is just plain dishonest.

#3 Clinton did join the ROTC when his last educational deferment was used up as did Rumsfeld. The difference is that Clinton never attended any meetings at all and never intended to, as he later admitted to the head of the ROTC contingent at his college. Rumsfeld did honorably attend his meetings.

#4 Clinton did intentionally dodge the draft by joining the ROTC and never participating in drills. Rumsfeld did not.

Your revisionist history is bordering on outright fabrication.

 

Ok, since you put it that way, I will reply.

"He served in the U.S. Navy from 1954 to 1957 as an aviator and flight instructor, training in North American SNJ basic trainers and later flying Grumman F9F Panther fighters. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Navy Captain in 1989."

Ever heard of Wikipedia?

 

Chemists supervised by Thomas Tullius, chairman of the chemistry department at Boston University who examined soil, sludge and debris samples from the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant found no traces of chemical weapon compounds. The owner of the facility filed suit in the U.S. Court of Claims in order to gain the release of his frozen assets, which the Clinton administration did not challenge.

You continue to call the Haiti intervention a success when it is the poorest country in the western hemisphere, there is no democracy, the economy is a basket case, and looting & violence are a daily fact of life.

 

I wonder how he missed that part.

I confess that I took his word for the story he told of Rumsfeld, all the time thinking Rummy was too old for that.

Dumb me.

So instead of bordering on outright fabrication, it was a total outight lie.

 

(carpro tries to put a face-saving twist on the data)

Funny, how when someone is about to do a little taffy-distribution, they first accuse others of it...

Ah, yes... the first slide in ethics is from "is it right" to "can I get arrested for it?" Clinton, BTW, also obeyed the law to the letter in this regard. Imagine that.

The difference, of course, is that Kerry volunteered for combat, and Clinton resigned his deferment and notified his draft board.

The only difference I see, is that Clinton eventually gave up his deferment and Rummy didn't. As I said, Rummy was perfectly willing to serve, so long as he didn't have to face combat.

Clinton resigned his ROTC appointment, having been given a Rhodes Scholarship. He notified the draft board of his change, which was the honorable thing to do.

In fact, Clinton resigned his appointment before the term even began. You know this, but chose not to mention it.

See above. Telling part of the truth is also a dishonesty. Shame on you.

And there's this shameful dishonesty on your part...

(Barbarian on Rummy's waiting until the war ended to serve)
Rumsfeld was willing to serve, BTW, when all the shooting stopped. Neocon all the way.

In fact, I told you about it. Rummy joined the fight, when the fight was over. You just tried to pretend that I didn't.

Yep. Never lie about something that's still on the board.

As you see, I told you about it before. But you tried to hide that fact. This is why you have the reputation you have here.

 

Well you know, when one is busy calling Rumsfeld a draft-dodger it is easy to overlook insignificant facts like 20 years of military service.

 

See above. As I said, never lie about something that's still on the board.

Like Clinton and Dubya, Rummy was perfectly happy to serve, so long as no fighting was required.

 

Some spinners when caught red handed in a lie never back off.

 

(Barbarian observes that Rummy was willing to serve only after the fighting ended.)

You pretended I didn't say that, but it's still on the board. Never lie about something that's still up. The only difference between Rumsfeld and Clinton, is Clinton resigned his exemption, and notified his draft board.

Rummy held on to it until the fighting stopped. You're trying to find a way out. There isn't one. The smart thing to do would have been to admit you didn't read what I wrote (if that was the truth) and let go of it.

 

(Argument that no poison gas residue was found in the Al Qaeda facility.)

There were no nuclear weapons, and not a trace of kangaroos. However, the facility did explode violently when hit, indicating explosive materials were on site.

Yep. There were two objectives:
1. Remove the dictatorship
2. Restore the democtatically-elected president.

Both were done with a minimum of cost, and the mission was successfully completed.

The intervention didn't cure cancer, either. But missions are judged to be successful or not, depending on whether or not the objectives are achieved.

This applies to Iraq, where there were no well-defined objectives, short of some dew-eyed belief that the Iraqis would love us, and democracy would ensue, and it woiuld be just wonderful. Military people will tell you that objectives are critical, if you don't want to get bogged down to no purpose.

Iraq is a failure because:
1. Bush didn't listen to his generals
2. There were no defined objectives