thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
That's ridiculous. Everyone, in this day and age of "psychobabble," understands what a "relationship" is, and can therefore understand what Christ calls us to enter with Him.
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Personal Relationship
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
What other way would someone understand relationship?
There are men who are in a relationship, who beat up their woman every weekend.
Some women in relationships cheat on their husband when he goes out of town, or visa versa.
Some people in a relationship offer nothing other than casual sex.
Now, you might disagree that those would be "true" relationships, but the heart of the matter is that people understand it differently.
Maybe "true" needs to be added as another qualifier.
Deep, intimate, true personal relationship.
Maybe we can add enough qualifiers to confound even seminary graduates.
Or we could extend the offer of eternal life, like Jesus and the apostles.
I know. Everything that disagrees with your take on a given issue is ridiculous. Religious people called Martin Luther ridiculous, too.
I like his reply. Paraphrased, if I may. Prove me wrong from scripture, and you have a convert. Otherwise, your ridicule does not sway me.
Interesting how you claimed in another thread that all one needs is a bible and the Holy Spirit to be able to understand biblical truth. So, do you have any scripture to bolster your claims here, or is it extra biblical revelation?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Very well.
2 Timothy 1, NASB
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. [Emphasis added
The word translated "reason" in the emboldened, italicized passage, is the Greek aitia, which commonly means reason, grounds, etc., but is also translated "relationship" in Matthew 19:10. It is for Paul's relationship with Christ that He is suffering. Throughout the New Testament, this word, when translated "reason" when discussing faith could also be translated "relationship" because it represents the strong connection between Christ and the believer.8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. [Emphasis added
This is an interesting post in light of the fact that I have been thinking over the last few weeks about the term "relationship" and what does it really mean. Recently there is new buzz word that has arisen in church circles, the word is CONNECTION. I have noticed that in listing staff members a lot of churches have a CONNECTION Pastor. Being 81 years of age I like most of my contemporaries tend to resist change of most any kind be it good or bad. After rethinking this I prefer CONNECTION to relationship. There are both good and bad relationships but if you connect with someone something good will probably result from this.
First, I'll say that I truly appreciate your appeal to scripture, and going beyond English renderings. There are a whole lot of gems we can find by looking deeper than what the translations offer us. Also, you gave me something to study. I honestly thank you for that challenge. And I assure you I have not taken your commentary lightly. That said, I have to disagree with your take.
Though the NASB (as well as ISV and HCSB) translates aitia as "relationship" in Matt 19:10, I don't believe the Greek would carry the same thrust as what is promoted by the phrase "relationship with Christ". In virtually every other translation I've looked at, aitia is translated "case" in this verse. These would include KJV, NRSV, NLT, ESV, Young, Darby, and many others. The NIV translates it as "situation".
Zodhiates' Complete WordStudy Dictionary has this to say about aitia, listing 3 uses:
(I) Efficient cause, motive, reason, ground (Matt 19:3; Luke 8:47; Acts 22:24; 28:20; 2Tim 1:6, 12; Titus 1:13; Heb 2:11)
(II) In the sense of affair, matter, case (cf. Acts 10:21; 23:28). In Matt 19:10, "if such is the case"(a.t.). With the meaning of thing, affair (Gen 20:8; Eccl 7:8); case, manner (Deut 15:2; 19:4; 1Kgs 9:15).
(III) In a foresnic sense, cause.
(A) An accusation of crime, charge (Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Acts 25:18, 27)
(B) Fault, guilt, crime (John 18:38; 19:4, 6; Acts 13:28; 28:18; Sept.: Gen 4:13; Prov 28:17)
Thayer's lexicon has this note: In Matthew 19:10 the words εἰ οὕτως ἐστιν ἡ αἰτία τοῦ ἀνθρώπου μετά τήν γυναικός find a simple explanation in a Latinism (causa equivalent tores:si ita res se habet, etc.) if the case of the man with his wife is so.
Aside from Zodhiates and Thayer, I notice a seemingly distinct phrase in my bible, not just a single word. What Paul said in 2Tim 1:12 is di ne aitian
This phrase is used 5 times in the NT that I see:
Luke 9:47 - When the woman with an issue of blood tuched Jesus, He wanted to know di ne aitian, or the reason why she touched Him
2Tim 1:6 - In verse 5, Paul said to Timothy "I am mindful of the sincere faith within you". Then in verse 6 he said di ne aitian, or for this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God....
Because Paul knew of Timothy's sincere faith, the admonition was given.
2Tim 1:12 - In verses 9-11, Paul is speaking of being saved and calle with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to God's own purpose, through the gospel, for which Paul was appointed an apostle, preacher and teacher. Then says di ne aitian, or for this reason I suffer. For what reason would he suffer? Because that was his holy calling. See 1Peter 2:20-21: ...if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for yo to follow in His steps.
Paul was suffering because of this reason: he was appointed to it for God's own purpose. Not for a relationship, but for a purpose
Titus 1:13 - In verses 10-12, Paul is speaking of rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especialy of the circumcision, who must be silenced. Then says di ne aitian, or for this reason reprove them severely.
Heb 2:11 - In verses 9-10, Jesus was crowned with glory and honor because of suffering. And He is bringing many sons to glory with Him (through following Him in suffering). We are from the same Father. Di ne aitian, or for this reason He is not ashamed to call us brethren. The reason is that we are from the same Father.
This phrase is, in every instance, used to mean "for this reason" or "because of this" or "this is why".
It is not used to mean "for this relationship"
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The recent post I made concerning 'working out one's own personal salvation with Christ' is grounded in Phil 2:12,13:
....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
That is MY path, and not anyone else's. He is working in me, personally, individually. What He wants ME to do will not necessarily be what He wants YOU to do.
Even a casual reading of the Psalms of David shows just how personal this can be.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I believe this is Peters thought in 2 Peter 2:10, 11.
David under the old covenant though,as they were not sealed as we under new covenant now!
The parrot strikes again.
I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119:162
Do you actually believe a man devoid of the Spirit could do the above, ESPECIALLY to rejoice in the incomplete word that David had?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
No he didn't. You're right there.
I crack me up sometimes. :laugh:
OT believers did NOT received the holy Spirit in an abiding sealed permanently fashion, as he came and when, usually upon JUST those in official roles like prophets/priests/Kings!
That is why David so afraid that God remove his annoiting to be the king by the presense of the Spirit from him!